Discussion:
Repost of one of the best pieces I have read on these forums.
(too old to reply)
DoD
2006-10-12 16:45:51 UTC
Permalink
[Many thanks to Lisa for the original pointer to this exceptional article
that unfortunately encapsules what we see on these forums WRT Israel. This
artcle puts together many of my thoughts over the past few years very well]

Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years

Robert Wistrich

This is a translation of a lecture held on 10 December , 1984 at Study
Circle on World Jewry in the home of the President of Israel

I have set out to trace some of the links between anti-Zionism and classical
anti-Semitism as they have found expression in recent times. This task is
all the more urgent as it has become increasingly apparent since the early
1970s that there has been an orchestrated campaign against the Jewish State,
Zionism and the Jewish people as a whole, a campaign whose impact
constitutes a serious threat to our status in the world and ultimately to
our very existence. This campaign has now acquired such a global dimension
and resonance that I believe it can be compared to the threat posed to Jews
by Nazism in the period of its upsurge - before it assumed governmental
power; this in spite of the very considerable differences in the status of
the Jews and attitudes towards them in the non-Jewish world which existed
then and which obtain now. In spite of all the positive changes which
occurred in the wake of the Holocaust, the last decade with its cumulative
anti-Zionism has led to a dangerous regression which calls into question the
over-optimistic assumptions of the 1950s and 1960s. Then it was still
believed that Israel would constitute a completely new beginning and by its
very existence lead to the gradual disappearance of anti-Semitism in the
gentile world. In fact, the opposite has happened. Not only have
anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, historically distinct and even antithetical
ideologies, become interrelated: Israel itself is today the prime cause and
pretext of a partly novel form of anti-Semitism, as puzzling as it is
disturbing.

I will focus on two aspects only, of this phenomenon, both of which are
interconnected and which have assumed particular importance in the last four
or five years: the attempt to stigmatize Israel as a "Nazi" state, and the
parallel campaign by some anti-Zionist circle to rewrite the history of the
Holocaust as a Zionist conspiracy or as a collaboration between Nazis and
Zionists to murder the Jewish masses in Europe. The very extremism of such
claims makes it tempting to dismiss them as the sick product of a lunatic
fringe which no sane person could possibly take seriously and which could
never hope to influence public opinion. Unfortunately, this is not quite the
case and bitter experience has taught us that such paranoid distortions of
reality can reach a wide audience and exercise a fateful impact on the
future. Moreover, it is precisely the equation of Zionism with Nazism which
is in my opinion the most characteristic mode of the new anti-Semitic
anti-Zionism in the early 1980s, one which inverts all our assumptions and
therefore deserves special attention and consideration.

This is not an easy subject to discuss for emotional reasons on which I do
not need to elaborate in this forum. But there are also methodological and
intellectual difficulties. How can we be sure that anti-Zionism, even of the
more extreme kind that I shall be discussing, is not perhaps the case that
even the most vehement anti-Zionism is not really inspired by hatred of
Jews? We all know that in the 19th century Jews themselves were among the
leading opponents of Zionism and to this day ultra-Orthodox Judaism sharply
denounces the Zionist "heresy" and the State of Israel. Many left-wing and
liberal Jews in the Diaspora who oppose Zionism would forcefully deny that
they are anti-Semitic and yet some of these Jews openly compare Zionism with
Nazism. This fact has provided an effective smokescreen for Soviet, Arab and
neo-Nazi antisemites to claim that they are "only" against Israel even as
they openly discriminate against, threaten or attack Diaspora Jews.

Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in
deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good
intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of
the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, where there was previously no
tradition or cultural substructure of Judeophobia. While at the same time in
the post-war Western democracies anti-Zionism has provided a vehicle for the
re-emergence of anti-Jewish attitudes which were for some twenty to
twenty-five years partially submerged. This does not appear to me to be an
accidental connection or mere coincidence of events. On the other hand, our
analytic understanding is complicated by the fact that today nobody wishes
to declare himself openly as an anti-Semite. Even neo-Nazis in the West are
careful to wrap their racist mania in the appropriate "anti-Zionist"
terminology, while on the Left those who shout loudes against "Nazi" Israel
are usually self-proclaimed militant anti-racist.

So today we are seemingly confronted by an anti-Semitism which springs to
the defense of all victims of racial oppression except the Jews - the
paradigmatic example of such victims - who are now transformed into
perpetrators and prototypes of racism! The Zionism is Nazism libel has built
on this inversion of images which goes much deeper than is often realized
here in Israel. Perhaps only people like myself, who have lived most of
their lives in the Diaspora and witnessed the transformation that occurred
in the 1970s (in my own case in England), can really grasp the full
significance of this change. This does not mean that we should therefore
stick the label of anti-Semitism on all forms of anti-Zionism, let alone on
all criticisms of the Sate of Israel and its policies. We have enemies
enough without unnecessarily extending their number by unwarranted
accusations. Moreover, even if it were not anti-Jewish, the contemporary
forms of anti-Zionism would be dangerous enough in their own right to demand
a searching analysis and effort to develop an antidote.

But it appears to me that there is a basic continuity between classical
anti-Semitism and contemporary anti-Zionism which can and should guide us in
our search. Both ideologies seek in practice to deprive the Jew of his right
to an equal place in the world; to limit his activity and freedom of
movement; his human civic and political rights, and even his very right to
exist - at least in the more radical formulation. Both anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism imply that the Jews have no claim to be a free independent
people like other peoples, to define themselves according to universally
acceptable criteria of self-determination, to enjoy the fruits of individual
or collective emancipation. Thus both ideologies are built on the negation
of Jewish rights and seek to drive the Jews back into a ghetto - whether it
is physical or symbolic. The Je4ws must be confined to the status of a
pariah nation. In a word, they do not belong.

For the European antisemites of the 19th century, Jews did not belong to
European Christian culture. They were "Semites" or "Asiatics", Eternally
alien to Christian, "Aryan", society. For contemporary anti-Zionist, in
particular for most of our Arab neighbors, Israel is ironically enough an
alien Western implant in the Middle East, without roots in the region or any
right to a legitimate, equal and autonomous presence as a sovereign state.
The goal of Arab anti-Zionism is ultimately to reduce Israel (or the Jews as
a collectivity) to their age-old humiliated status under Islam, as dhimmis
"protected" by Moslem "tolerance" and living on grace rather than by right
in its midst. This type of anti-Zionism seeks to de-emancipate the Jews as
an independent nation just as modern secular European anti-Semitism
insistently sought to de-emancipate the Jews as free and equal individuals
in civil society and as an integral part of the body politic of the
nation-state. Anti-Zionsim continues the discriminatory theory and practice
of classical anti-Semitism, transferring it to an international plane. It
wishes to re-ghettoize the Jewish nation, just as post-emancipation
antisemites sought to return the Jewish community to the pre-modern ghetto.

In both cases, we witness a conscious effort to delegitimize Jewish
self-definition and to undermine the dominant mode of Jewish group
existence. In the Middle Ages the main thrust of this delegitimization was
anti-Judaism - directed by the Christian church against the religion by
which Jews as a whole defined themselves; in the era of emancipation, it
took the secular "scientific" form of anti-Semitism - Jews are an inferior
race and therefore don not deserve civil equality or else they are dangerous
parasites and must be excluded from human society.

In the post-war era of the Jewish State, delegitimization is no longer
primarily racial or religious but ideological and political. There are
several reasons for this change. In the first place, racial delegitimization
in the post-1945 world, which has been decolonized and where "racism" is
officially considered by the Third World as the original sin of humanity, is
an ineffective weapon. Religious bigotry is also widely considered as a
reactionary phenomenon - especially in the West - though much less so in the
Islamic world where it continues to play a very significant role in Arab
anti-Zionism. On the other hand, ideological opposition, particularly when
it employs the fashionable "progressive" terminology of anti-Imperialism, is
generally acceptable.

The second major reason is that Israel has become the main embodiment in
Jewish and non-Jewish eyes of the modern Jewish group identity and is
therefore the obvious target for anti-Semitic invective. Delegitimization of
Israel and its ideological basis - Zionism- is the most direct way in our
time to damage Jewish interests and prepare the way for the destruction of
Jewish identity. This is clear enough to the Soviet Union, the Arab and
Moslem states and the Jews-baiters all over the world. It is not apparently
clear to many Jews and non-Jewish liberals who still lend their hand, often
unconsciously and without always understanding the logical consequences, to
the enemies of Israel.

The Soviet Union has played a special role in the world-wide campaign of
delegitimization of Zionism, Judaism and Israel since the late 1960s. It has
taken over in practice the heritage of Nazi anti-Semitism and already in
Stalin's last years, the paranoid theory of the world Jewish conspiracy in
Marxist-Leninist disguise, acquired an "anti-Zionist". tinge. In the past 15
years, it has also been the Soviet Union which has stood in the forefront of
the global campaign to equate Zionism with Nazism, just as it orchestrated
the infamous Zionism is Racism resolution at the U.N. in November 1975 in
conjunction with the Arab states. The slander that Israel is a "Nazi" state
should be seen as an escalation of the earlier campaign, one which in the
early 1980s has moreover achieved some resonance in the West, especially
after the violence and destruction in Lebanon. The Arab role in the
propagation of the Zionist-Nazi equation is today no less significant, but
in the past it was not so evident- possibly for the reason that many Arab
nationalists in the early post-war period still identified with Hitler and
Nazism. Their only regret was that the Germans had failed to truly complete
the "Final Solution" and as a result the State of Israel had emerged.

For the Arabs and above all the Palestinian leadership, the Holocaust was
never really absorbed in its horrific dimensions of inhumanity, and the real
collaboration of certain Arab leaders (beginning with Grand Mufti of
Jerusalem with the Nazis was repressed. Instead the Nazi Holocaust was
perceived mainly as a political tool in the hands of Zionist. To counteract
this weapon, the Palestinian tragedy had to be inflated into a new and even
more horrific Holocaust instigated by Israel itself. Zionism was allegedly
responsible for this terrible and unique crime; hence Ahmed Shukeiry (the
first leader of the PLO) could declare in a U.N. speech of 4 December 1961:
"Zionism was nastier than Fascism, uglier than Nazism, more hateful than
imperialism, more dangerous than imperialism. Zionism was a combination of
all these traits."

In the late 1960s the PLO began to grasp the utility of projecting the Nazi
horror directly onto Israel and utilizing the prestige of the European
anti-Nazi resistance for their own cause. For Western consumption, PLO
propaganda now stressed the similarities between the Palestinians' condition
in the Middle East (as a result of Israeli "oppression") and that of the
Jews of Europe under Hitler's rule. Were not they, too (that is, the
Palestine Arabs), a homeless, persecuted people evicted from their lands,
defenseless, stateless, refugees deprived of independence and basic human
dignity? One can recognize the factual elements in this presentation without
necessarily sharing the extremely one-sided and demonological view of
Zionism as the sole or even main culprit, responsible for this state of
affairs.

What is more important for our purpose tonight is the real impact of this
inversion of traditional images of persecutors and victims on Western public
opinion since 1967. It was a major propaganda coup for the PLO that it
partly succeeded in adapting "Zionist" terminology for its won purposes -
turning the symbolism of the "return " of an exiled people to its homeland
against Israel itself. This campaign is implicitly anti-Jewish in a subtle
and insidious sense, deliberately playing on the guilt feelings and
sensibilities of Europeans regarding the Holocaust. By destroying or driving
the Jew out of Europe, it is argued, Zionism led to an even greater
"crime" - the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs by Israeli Jews. Therefore it
is the moral responsibility of the West to unconditionally support the
Palestinians. How often one has heard this Arab argument repeated by
European statesmen and intellectuals in the past fifteen years pro-Arab
policies generally adopted for quite different and very cynical reasons of
self-interest.

At the same time, Arab propaganda has deliberately sought to strip the Nazi
Holocaust of its unique and Jewish content- that is, when Arab money is not
actually financing the publication of so-called "revisionist" literature,
which denies that the murder of six million Jews ever took place! These
efforts did not achieve much resonance in the West until the Lebanon war.
Suddenly a significant section of the Western press - by no means
"anti-Zionist" in an ideological sense - began to draw startling parallels
between Lebanon and Lidice, Israelis and Nazis, the Star of David and the
Swastika, the Palestinians and the embattled Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto. Was
this anti-Semitism, latent or manifest, old or new, or simply media
sensationalism and the desire to package a great human tragedy in black and
white terms, with the Israelis as the natural villains?

Perhaps anti-Semitism is not quite the right word, though as the former
editor of the London Observer, Conor Cruise O'Brien, pointed out in that
newspaper, June 1982. For the people in question, to quote this astute
observer, were even extravagantly philo-Semitic these days, in their
feelings for the Arabic-speaking branch of the Semitic linguistic family".
Obrien suggested a new term, "anti-Jewism" - "it's an ugly word, so it fits
nicely". He proposed "a pragmatic test, for possible "anti-Jewism" in
discussion of Israel" - namely "if your interlocutor can't keep Hitler out
of the conversation, if he is. feverishly turning Jews into Nazis and Arabs
intro Jews - why then I think you may be talking to a anti-Jewist."

The O'Brien litmus test is certainly a useful guide for identifying a major
component of contemporary anti-Semitic anti-Zionism in both Eat and Wet. In
the Communist world, this type of "anti-Jewish" dates back at least 30 years
to the period of the Slansky trial in Czechoslovakia and the so called
"Doctors' Plot" orchestrated by the dying Stalin. But it only attained full
force after the massive Arab defeat in June 1967, when the USSR, to revive
its own damaged prestige, embarked on a systematic campaign to totally
discredit Israel, Zionism and Judaism, One of its most widely used weapons
was the remorseless repetition of the legend that the Zionist had already
sought in the 1930s to create a "pro-Nazi" state in the Middle East, that
they had actively participated with the Germans in the mass destruction of
European Jewry, that they had sabotaged Jewish resistance in the ghettos and
served as a "fifth column" for the Wehrmacht in the conquered territories of
Europe. Both Nazis and Zionist supposedly signed secret agreements which
condemned the Jews of Europe the gas chambers in return for German support
for Jewish "fascist" aims in Palestine!

The interesting fact is that in recent years these grotesque Soviet
blood-libels have been taken up by a part of the radical Left - especially
the Trotskyists - in Western Europe and America. This trend is most striking
in Great Britain, of which I have the greatest first-hand experience - a
country which in the last decade has proved increasingly receptive to the
most varied kinds of anti-Zionist rhetoric. The willingness of supposedly
anti-Soviet radical leftists to swallow these made in Russia fabrications,
provides food for thought. Are they in fact nothing but puppets of His
Master's Voice in Moscow or bought lackeys of Arab petro-dollars? Perhaps in
some cases, this is indeed the reason. But the truth, I think, is more
disturbing than that. Anti-Zionism has in the past fifteen to twenty years,
gradually become an integral part of the cultural code of many Leftist and
some liberal circles - an enemy on a par with Imperialism, racism and
militarism - and invariably identified with these evils.

Precisely because it sees itself as "anti-fascist", this Western radical
culture is militantly anti-Zionist and can very easily slide into the
ultimate step of equating Nazism with Zionism, the Third Reich with Israel,
the Wehrmacht with Zahal. Unlike the radical Right, it does not desire the
rehabilitation of Nazism, it does not deny the Holocaust and at least in
theory it believes that anti-Semitism is a reactionary, racist doctrine to
be fought no less strongly than Zionism itself. Nevertheless, I would claim
that the falsifiers of the anti-Israeli Left who now rewrite the history of
the Holocaust as a story of Nazi-Zionist "collaboration" are no less
dangerous than the neo-Nazi "revisionists" and possible more effective.
Unlike their Soviet models, they may actually believe the libels they
propagate and this gives them a certain credibility - especially when they
are Jews. Their emergence was made possible by the general climate of
anti-Zionist opinion in the West, greatly stimulated by the turn to the
Right in Israel after 1977 and the Lebanon war, which provided the
opportunity and the opening. Recent works by Lenni Brenner, such Zionism in
the Age of the Dictators, or Tony Greenstein, Zionism - Antisemitism's
Twin in Jewish Garb - both written by Jewish Leftists (one American, the
other British) - are increasingly symptomatic of the times we live in.

Much more disturbing was the way that the Lebanon war provoked an orgy of
media denunciation directed at Israel's so-called "genocide", a fantastic
legend briefly given credence even in the so-called quality press in the
West. Suddenly, ideological opinions on the "fascist" or "Nazi" nature of
Zionism which had belonged to the margins of Western society, were taken
seriously and acquired a new respectability. Yitzhak Shamir's past as an
underground terrorist was, for example, scrutinized with extraordinary
intensity when he became Prime Minister in 1983 and his alleged contacts
with the Nazis were inflated into wild accusations about the historically
rooted "fascist" character of Zionism. It was not only the radical
Trotskyist fringe of the Labor and Left-wing press in Britain and other
Western countries that indulged in such analogies. They could also draw
sustenance; it should be pointed out, from irresponsible voices in Israel
itself who are frequently quoted in anti-Zionist literature abroad to
provide cover against charges of anti-Semitic bias and prejudice.

The anti-Zionist mood intensified across the political spectrum in the West
and thus a revision of the past and present with regard to Zionism began to
take place, for the first time reflecting motifs long familiar from Soviet
propaganda. For example, it was now alleged that Zionism had always allied
itself with reactionary forces and rabid antisemites in order to achieve its
"criminal" goals. It was not only detrimental to Diaspora Jewish interests,
but it had deliberately and callously abandoned the Jews during the
Holocaust to their fate. It was, moreover, a cruel racist doctrine of
chosenness, which had inevitably and logically led to the "genocidal"
policies of Israel in Lebanon. In the radical Leftist and neo-Nazi press,
and also in writings by ultra-Orthodox Jewish fanatics, Hitler and the Nazi
mass murder seemed to pale into insignificance alongside the new Israeli
"fascism" in the Middle East -depicted as a threat to humanity as a whole.

Wild rhetoric on this scale was fairly novel in the West, but in Soviet
Russia it had been official Orwellian Newspeak since June 1967 when Soviet
Ambassador Fedorenko denounced the Israeli "war criminals" in the UN for
pursuing Hitlerite policies in the Wet Bank, while the war was still in
progress. Brezhnev himself at that time gave the signal to the Soviet media
by stating that the Israeli "invaders" were seeking to imitate the actions
of the Hitlerites. The Soviets did not wait for the advent of Mr. Begin or
Mr. Sharon to brand Israel's leaders as fascist executioners. The late Moshe
Dayan and Golda Meir, leaders of the Israeli Labor government, were favorite
targets in the Soviet disinformation effort of the early 1970s, accused of
ruthlessly pursuing the Nazi derma of Lebensraum, of ruling hapless Arabs in
the spirit of a masterace (Herrenvolk), of establishing concentration camps
and even of sterilizing the local population.

At that time, however, there were few people in the West ready to credit
such obvious falsehoods. The Nazi-Zionist equation only gradually
infiltrated the Western world, partly through the channel o the communist
parties and the growing influence of Arab money and diplomacy after the oil
crisis of 1973 In addition, there were local causes, at least in Western
Europe, which helped prepare the ground. Rising anti-Americanism (and the
perception of Israel as an American stooge) was one factor; neutralist
tendencies and the growing strength of the peace movements, the policy of
appeasement (towards Russian and the Arabs) and the Third Worldism of many
European politicians and intellectuals, exacerbated the process.

At the same time, a subtle revision of the Hitler era took place in popular
works, films and even books by serious historians which perhaps indirectly
lent itself to the irresponsible comparisons that have been drawn in the
early 1980s between Nazism and more current phenomena. The result of all
these trends which were to culminate ingrossly disproportionate Western
reactions t the Lebanon war, was the definitive end of the brief era of
European "philosemitism" and pro-Israel ism, which under the impact of the
Holocaust had in fact sentimentalized the Jews as model victims. In their
place came new victims, above all the Palestinians - themselves sacrificed,
so it was suggested by the anti-Zionists, to make way for the creation of a
Jewish State in which they were fated to be objects of racist
discrimination.

These symbolic post-1967 reversals of image had their origins in the
subculture of the new Left in the late 1960s, which peaked just when the
Six-Day War had sent shock waves through the world and had transformed the
European and Western perception of Israel and the Jews. Though the New Left
quickly faded as a political force, its influence penetrated intro new and
more lasting trends such as the "Green" (Ecological) and Peace movements,
Feminism, a new immigrant and ethnic militancy, the impact of Arab and Third
World elements and causes at Western universities, etc. The anti-Israel and
anti-Zionist ideological bias of the radical Left was considerably
strengthened by these developments and it also spread onto the media -
especially television- where it began to exert amass influence. By no means
all of this anti-Israelism was anti-Semitic in intent and much of the
reporting of Israel and the Middle East was no doubt motivated by sympathy
for Palestinians more than by hatred of Jews. Nevertheless, the overall,
cumulative effect was to create a very negative picture of the Jewish State.

It is this background along with a significant generation change which has
ultimately made possible the current fashion of drawing the Zionist-Nazi
parallel even in the Western democracies, The political , cultural and moral
damage to Israel and the Jewish people of this process of delegitimization
has been considerable, though it is not necessarily irreversible.

Images are notoriously volatile and Western public reaction to the Middle
East in the long term is difficult to predict. One cannot say that the Arab
cause has made tremendous gains in Western opinion, but the erosion of
Israel's standing and good name over the past decade is certainly palpable.
Many gentiles in the West and the Third World who in former times were
sympathetic to the Jewish State clearly feel let down and disappointed.
Sometimes this disappointment can lead to hatred. On the other hand, there
are also many influential people in Western politics and cultural life who
have not allowed themselves to be swept along by the anti-Israel hysteria.
Moreover, in the United States, where the situation is fundamentally
different in many ways from Europe, the image of Israel and Zionism, while
somewhat dented, still remains largely positive.

But if the picture is not entirely black , there are many troubling points
of concern. It must be realized that there is a new generation in the West
which has now entered politics and is also acquiring influence in cultural
life. Many of the new generation have been nourished on extremely negative
ideas concerning Israel and Zionism. The image of the ugly Israeli, which
they have acquired through various channels, has undoubtedly shaped their
outlook on international politics. In place of the money-grubbing Jew or the
subversive Jewish revolutionary of anti-Semitic mythology, they have been
exposed to new and more up-to -date stereotypes - those of the militarist,
racist and now even the "Nazi" Jews seeking to dominate the world by force.
An image of lust for power and reckless militarism can already be added to
the rich armory of anti-Semitic type-casting nourished over generations by
Christian, Moslem, Marxist and right-wing demonology. A reflex anti-Zionism
which may not always have been anti-Jewish in origin and intention, today
all too easily falls into the established groove of an endemic antisemitism
that has been an central feature of civilization for more than two
millennia. This development is particularly dangerous for the future of
Israel and the Jewish people because through anti-Zionism, a revival of all
the latent murderous potential of antisemitism is in fact already taking
place. Those responsible for decision-making in Israel have in my opinion.
Been too slow to appreciate this fact and its negative political
significance.

The Jews of Israel have perhaps tended in the past to dismiss the
seriousness of the ideological and political enmity that has built up in the
outside world towards them. Unfortunately, as recent development have shown,
what the gentiles think and say can be as important as what the Jews
actually do - words do have political consequences! The power of
propaganda, of the media and images can often be as decisive as winning
wars -a fact that was once very well understood by the Zionist leadership,
but has tended to be forgotten in more recent years. The negative
consequences of anti-Zionism have been most palpable and obvious for Israel
in the international sphere - in its standing in the United Nations and its
diplomatic isolation.

But the internal dangers should also not be forgotten - for example, the
growth of isolationist and extreme nationalist currents in Israel and even
the seeds of an Arabophobic tendency which in the past was much less
significant. These trends need to be uprooted while they are still only
potential dangers, if the anti-Zionist propaganda offensive from without is
not one day to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Israeli society is still
far from corresponding to the diabolic fantasy-image constructed by those
who seek to destroy it. But it is also no more immunized than any other
democracy from disintegrative trends, from extremism, racism and intolerance
which may tear it apart from within.

There is no less serious danger contained in the anti-Zionist drive of
recent years when we come to consider Diaspora Jews. In my opinion, one of
the objectives of the anti-Israel campaign has been to drive a wedge between
the Jewish State and its exposed Diaspora hinterland. The more wicked and
diabolical the State of Israel seems in the eyes of gentile public opinion,
the less likely Diaspora Jews are to support such a State - this is surely
the calculation of our enemies. How could World Jewry back a "Nazi" State
after what happened during the Holocaust? How can it support and subsidize
racial discrimination in Israel? There has, in fact, been a growing chorus
of gentile voices even in the West in recent years suggesting that the
Diaspora Jewry dissociate from this so-called "racist" aggressive Israel or
else it can expect to pay the price in terms of a justified (?) revival of
antisemitism. For, as accomplices in Israeli "crimes" through their
financial and political support, Diaspora Jews are ultimately no less
guilty. Clearly this type of moral and political blackmail may have its
impact on Jews outside Israel and the long-term consequences are
unpredictable.

It may, of course, well be that if anti-Zionism continues to assume an
extremist and antisemitic character, then Diaspora Jews will be obliged to
organize themselves, and to strengthen their ties with Israel and Zionism.
To some extent, the Zionism is Racism campaign did eventually have this
effect. On the other hand, an opposite result is no less likely. For it is,
after all, easier for the Diaspora Jew to lower his profile in
Israeli-related affairs when the temperature of anti-Zionism rises or even
to join in the anti-Israel consensus, than it is to swim against the
current. Only time can tell whether Diaspora Jewry will wilt under the
pressures of a hostile non-Jewish environment.

One thing should, however, be clear from this necessarily brief overview of
the current situation. Anti-Zionism of the type I have tried to describe is
a poisonous flower which has deliberately encouraged a process of alienation
between Israel and the nations, between Israel and the Diaspora, as well as
a sense of self-alienation within Israeli society itself. It has thereby
created the danger of irrational reactions on all sides in order to overcome
concrete political and moral problems by violent means. Hence the urgent
necessity to analyze and struggle against this phenomenon.
http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/Antizionism.htm
Zionism is a cancer
2006-10-12 16:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Zionism DataPage

Jews Against Zionism:
"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should
understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel... and it is
most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of
the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of
Israel..." - Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum


"It (labeling people 'anti-semitic') has been a handy and effective
weapon which has destroyed countless careers and is responsible for the
totally illegitimate Zionist regime. Zionists have cleverly suggested
for a hundred years, by smearing their critics as 'anti-Semites,' that
the Zionists are the legitimate conquerors of Palestine. Zionists have
never actually SAID they were Semitic - just that their enemies are
'anti-Semitic.' Pretty neat...and completely dishonest. But in light of
the genuine anti-Semitism of the Zionists it becomes a bizarre
obscenity when these non-Semitic aliens accuse their Semitic victims of
'anti-Semitism'.

I believe this is the central issue regarding The Jewish Question. When
awareness of this matter becomes more widespread, and it will now, the
Zionist state will lose support even from the deluded Christians, who
need Semitic-type Jews running "Israel" for the fulfillment of their
bloody dreams. The Zionists will be exposed as pseudo-religious
gangsters." --J. Bruce Campbell


"Once a day on average I get a letter from someone asking me how I
could allow myself to be published and interviewed by Jeff Rense, the
popular web and radio host who publishes way too much anti-Israel
material. I have no problem answering, "Because he lets me, which is
more than I can say about the mainstream Jewish media." Jeff Rense is
an honest voice and he permits me to reach a huge audience of New Age
Lefties, and misguided Righties bombarded with lies about Israel.

-Barry Chamish Author: Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin, The Last Days Of
Israel - Israeli Edition, and Israel Betrayed

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zionismdata.htm
DoD
2006-10-12 17:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
This is a translation of a lecture held on 10 December , 1984 at Study
Circle on World Jewry in the home of the President of Israel
I have set out to trace some of the links between anti-Zionism and classical
anti-Semitism as they have found expression in recent times. This task is
all the more urgent as it has become increasingly apparent since the early
1970s that there has been an orchestrated campaign against the Jewish State,
Zionism and the Jewish people as a whole, a campaign whose impact
constitutes a serious threat to our status in the world and ultimately to
our very existence. This campaign has now acquired such a global dimension
and resonance that I believe it can be compared to the threat posed to Jews
by Nazism in the period of its upsurge - before it assumed governmental
power; this in spite of the very considerable differences in the status of
the Jews and attitudes towards them in the non-Jewish world which existed
then and which obtain now. In spite of all the positive changes which
occurred in the wake of the Holocaust, the last decade with its cumulative
anti-Zionism has led to a dangerous regression which calls into question the
over-optimistic assumptions of the 1950s and 1960s. Then it was still
believed that Israel would constitute a completely new beginning and by its
very existence lead to the gradual disappearance of anti-Semitism in the
gentile world. In fact, the opposite has happened. Not only have
anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, historically distinct and even
antithetical
Post by DoD
ideologies, become interrelated: Israel itself is today the prime cause and
pretext of a partly novel form of anti-Semitism, as puzzling as it is
disturbing.
I will focus on two aspects only, of this phenomenon, both of which are
interconnected and which have assumed particular importance in the last four
or five years: the attempt to stigmatize Israel as a "Nazi" state, and the
parallel campaign by some anti-Zionist circle to rewrite the history of the
Holocaust as a Zionist conspiracy or as a collaboration between Nazis and
Zionists to murder the Jewish masses in Europe. The very extremism of such
claims makes it tempting to dismiss them as the sick product of a lunatic
fringe which no sane person could possibly take seriously and which could
never hope to influence public opinion. Unfortunately, this is not quite the
case and bitter experience has taught us that such paranoid distortions of
reality can reach a wide audience and exercise a fateful impact on the
future. Moreover, it is precisely the equation of Zionism with Nazism which
is in my opinion the most characteristic mode of the new anti-Semitic
anti-Zionism in the early 1980s, one which inverts all our assumptions and
therefore deserves special attention and consideration.
This is not an easy subject to discuss for emotional reasons on which I do
not need to elaborate in this forum. But there are also methodological and
intellectual difficulties. How can we be sure that anti-Zionism, even of the
more extreme kind that I shall be discussing, is not perhaps the case that
even the most vehement anti-Zionism is not really inspired by hatred of
Jews? We all know that in the 19th century Jews themselves were among the
leading opponents of Zionism and to this day ultra-Orthodox Judaism sharply
denounces the Zionist "heresy" and the State of Israel. Many left-wing and
liberal Jews in the Diaspora who oppose Zionism would forcefully deny that
they are anti-Semitic and yet some of these Jews openly compare Zionism with
Nazism. This fact has provided an effective smokescreen for Soviet, Arab and
neo-Nazi antisemites to claim that they are "only" against Israel even as
they openly discriminate against, threaten or attack Diaspora Jews.
Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in
deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good
intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of
the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, where there was previously no
tradition or cultural substructure of Judeophobia. While at the same time in
the post-war Western democracies anti-Zionism has provided a vehicle for the
re-emergence of anti-Jewish attitudes which were for some twenty to
twenty-five years partially submerged. This does not appear to me to be an
accidental connection or mere coincidence of events. On the other hand, our
analytic understanding is complicated by the fact that today nobody wishes
to declare himself openly as an anti-Semite. Even neo-Nazis in the West are
careful to wrap their racist mania in the appropriate "anti-Zionist"
terminology, while on the Left those who shout loudes against "Nazi" Israel
are usually self-proclaimed militant anti-racist.
So today we are seemingly confronted by an anti-Semitism which springs to
the defense of all victims of racial oppression except the Jews - the
paradigmatic example of such victims - who are now transformed into
perpetrators and prototypes of racism! The Zionism is Nazism libel has built
on this inversion of images which goes much deeper than is often realized
here in Israel. Perhaps only people like myself, who have lived most of
their lives in the Diaspora and witnessed the transformation that occurred
in the 1970s (in my own case in England), can really grasp the full
significance of this change. This does not mean that we should therefore
stick the label of anti-Semitism on all forms of anti-Zionism, let alone on
all criticisms of the Sate of Israel and its policies. We have enemies
enough without unnecessarily extending their number by unwarranted
accusations. Moreover, even if it were not anti-Jewish, the contemporary
forms of anti-Zionism would be dangerous enough in their own right to demand
a searching analysis and effort to develop an antidote.
But it appears to me that there is a basic continuity between classical
anti-Semitism and contemporary anti-Zionism which can and should guide us in
our search. Both ideologies seek in practice to deprive the Jew of his right
to an equal place in the world; to limit his activity and freedom of
movement; his human civic and political rights, and even his very right to
exist - at least in the more radical formulation. Both anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism imply that the Jews have no claim to be a free independent
people like other peoples, to define themselves according to universally
acceptable criteria of self-determination, to enjoy the fruits of individual
or collective emancipation. Thus both ideologies are built on the negation
of Jewish rights and seek to drive the Jews back into a ghetto - whether it
is physical or symbolic. The Je4ws must be confined to the status of a
pariah nation. In a word, they do not belong.
For the European antisemites of the 19th century, Jews did not belong to
European Christian culture. They were "Semites" or "Asiatics", Eternally
alien to Christian, "Aryan", society. For contemporary anti-Zionist, in
particular for most of our Arab neighbors, Israel is ironically enough an
alien Western implant in the Middle East, without roots in the region or any
right to a legitimate, equal and autonomous presence as a sovereign state.
The goal of Arab anti-Zionism is ultimately to reduce Israel (or the Jews as
a collectivity) to their age-old humiliated status under Islam, as dhimmis
"protected" by Moslem "tolerance" and living on grace rather than by right
in its midst. This type of anti-Zionism seeks to de-emancipate the Jews as
an independent nation just as modern secular European anti-Semitism
insistently sought to de-emancipate the Jews as free and equal individuals
in civil society and as an integral part of the body politic of the
nation-state. Anti-Zionsim continues the discriminatory theory and practice
of classical anti-Semitism, transferring it to an international plane. It
wishes to re-ghettoize the Jewish nation, just as post-emancipation
antisemites sought to return the Jewish community to the pre-modern ghetto.
In both cases, we witness a conscious effort to delegitimize Jewish
self-definition and to undermine the dominant mode of Jewish group
existence. In the Middle Ages the main thrust of this delegitimization was
anti-Judaism - directed by the Christian church against the religion by
which Jews as a whole defined themselves; in the era of emancipation, it
took the secular "scientific" form of anti-Semitism - Jews are an inferior
race and therefore don not deserve civil equality or else they are dangerous
parasites and must be excluded from human society.
In the post-war era of the Jewish State, delegitimization is no longer
primarily racial or religious but ideological and political. There are
several reasons for this change. In the first place, racial
delegitimization
Post by DoD
in the post-1945 world, which has been decolonized and where "racism" is
officially considered by the Third World as the original sin of humanity, is
an ineffective weapon. Religious bigotry is also widely considered as a
reactionary phenomenon - especially in the West - though much less so in the
Islamic world where it continues to play a very significant role in Arab
anti-Zionism. On the other hand, ideological opposition, particularly when
it employs the fashionable "progressive" terminology of anti-Imperialism, is
generally acceptable.
The second major reason is that Israel has become the main embodiment in
Jewish and non-Jewish eyes of the modern Jewish group identity and is
therefore the obvious target for anti-Semitic invective. Delegitimization of
Israel and its ideological basis - Zionism- is the most direct way in our
time to damage Jewish interests and prepare the way for the destruction of
Jewish identity. This is clear enough to the Soviet Union, the Arab and
Moslem states and the Jews-baiters all over the world. It is not apparently
clear to many Jews and non-Jewish liberals who still lend their hand, often
unconsciously and without always understanding the logical consequences, to
the enemies of Israel.
The Soviet Union has played a special role in the world-wide campaign of
delegitimization of Zionism, Judaism and Israel since the late 1960s. It has
taken over in practice the heritage of Nazi anti-Semitism and already in
Stalin's last years, the paranoid theory of the world Jewish conspiracy in
Marxist-Leninist disguise, acquired an "anti-Zionist". tinge. In the past 15
years, it has also been the Soviet Union which has stood in the forefront of
the global campaign to equate Zionism with Nazism, just as it orchestrated
the infamous Zionism is Racism resolution at the U.N. in November 1975 in
conjunction with the Arab states. The slander that Israel is a "Nazi" state
should be seen as an escalation of the earlier campaign, one which in the
early 1980s has moreover achieved some resonance in the West, especially
after the violence and destruction in Lebanon. The Arab role in the
propagation of the Zionist-Nazi equation is today no less significant, but
in the past it was not so evident- possibly for the reason that many Arab
nationalists in the early post-war period still identified with Hitler and
Nazism. Their only regret was that the Germans had failed to truly complete
the "Final Solution" and as a result the State of Israel had emerged.
For the Arabs and above all the Palestinian leadership, the Holocaust was
never really absorbed in its horrific dimensions of inhumanity, and the real
collaboration of certain Arab leaders (beginning with Grand Mufti of
Jerusalem with the Nazis was repressed. Instead the Nazi Holocaust was
perceived mainly as a political tool in the hands of Zionist. To counteract
this weapon, the Palestinian tragedy had to be inflated into a new and even
more horrific Holocaust instigated by Israel itself. Zionism was allegedly
responsible for this terrible and unique crime; hence Ahmed Shukeiry (the
"Zionism was nastier than Fascism, uglier than Nazism, more hateful than
imperialism, more dangerous than imperialism. Zionism was a combination of
all these traits."
In the late 1960s the PLO began to grasp the utility of projecting the Nazi
horror directly onto Israel and utilizing the prestige of the European
anti-Nazi resistance for their own cause. For Western consumption, PLO
propaganda now stressed the similarities between the Palestinians' condition
in the Middle East (as a result of Israeli "oppression") and that of the
Jews of Europe under Hitler's rule. Were not they, too (that is, the
Palestine Arabs), a homeless, persecuted people evicted from their lands,
defenseless, stateless, refugees deprived of independence and basic human
dignity? One can recognize the factual elements in this presentation without
necessarily sharing the extremely one-sided and demonological view of
Zionism as the sole or even main culprit, responsible for this state of
affairs.
What is more important for our purpose tonight is the real impact of this
inversion of traditional images of persecutors and victims on Western public
opinion since 1967. It was a major propaganda coup for the PLO that it
partly succeeded in adapting "Zionist" terminology for its won purposes -
turning the symbolism of the "return " of an exiled people to its homeland
against Israel itself. This campaign is implicitly anti-Jewish in a subtle
and insidious sense, deliberately playing on the guilt feelings and
sensibilities of Europeans regarding the Holocaust. By destroying or driving
the Jew out of Europe, it is argued, Zionism led to an even greater
"crime" - the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs by Israeli Jews. Therefore it
is the moral responsibility of the West to unconditionally support the
Palestinians. How often one has heard this Arab argument repeated by
European statesmen and intellectuals in the past fifteen years pro-Arab
policies generally adopted for quite different and very cynical reasons of
self-interest.
At the same time, Arab propaganda has deliberately sought to strip the Nazi
Holocaust of its unique and Jewish content- that is, when Arab money is not
actually financing the publication of so-called "revisionist" literature,
which denies that the murder of six million Jews ever took place! These
efforts did not achieve much resonance in the West until the Lebanon war.
Suddenly a significant section of the Western press - by no means
"anti-Zionist" in an ideological sense - began to draw startling parallels
between Lebanon and Lidice, Israelis and Nazis, the Star of David and the
Swastika, the Palestinians and the embattled Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto. Was
this anti-Semitism, latent or manifest, old or new, or simply media
sensationalism and the desire to package a great human tragedy in black and
white terms, with the Israelis as the natural villains?
Perhaps anti-Semitism is not quite the right word, though as the former
editor of the London Observer, Conor Cruise O'Brien, pointed out in that
newspaper, June 1982. For the people in question, to quote this astute
observer, were even extravagantly philo-Semitic these days, in their
feelings for the Arabic-speaking branch of the Semitic linguistic family".
Obrien suggested a new term, "anti-Jewism" - "it's an ugly word, so it fits
nicely". He proposed "a pragmatic test, for possible "anti-Jewism" in
discussion of Israel" - namely "if your interlocutor can't keep Hitler out
of the conversation, if he is. feverishly turning Jews into Nazis and Arabs
intro Jews - why then I think you may be talking to a anti-Jewist."
The O'Brien litmus test is certainly a useful guide for identifying a major
component of contemporary anti-Semitic anti-Zionism in both Eat and Wet. In
the Communist world, this type of "anti-Jewish" dates back at least 30 years
to the period of the Slansky trial in Czechoslovakia and the so called
"Doctors' Plot" orchestrated by the dying Stalin. But it only attained full
force after the massive Arab defeat in June 1967, when the USSR, to revive
its own damaged prestige, embarked on a systematic campaign to totally
discredit Israel, Zionism and Judaism, One of its most widely used weapons
was the remorseless repetition of the legend that the Zionist had already
sought in the 1930s to create a "pro-Nazi" state in the Middle East, that
they had actively participated with the Germans in the mass destruction of
European Jewry, that they had sabotaged Jewish resistance in the ghettos and
served as a "fifth column" for the Wehrmacht in the conquered territories of
Europe. Both Nazis and Zionist supposedly signed secret agreements which
condemned the Jews of Europe the gas chambers in return for German support
for Jewish "fascist" aims in Palestine!
The interesting fact is that in recent years these grotesque Soviet
blood-libels have been taken up by a part of the radical Left - especially
the Trotskyists - in Western Europe and America. This trend is most striking
in Great Britain, of which I have the greatest first-hand experience - a
country which in the last decade has proved increasingly receptive to the
most varied kinds of anti-Zionist rhetoric. The willingness of supposedly
anti-Soviet radical leftists to swallow these made in Russia fabrications,
provides food for thought. Are they in fact nothing but puppets of His
Master's Voice in Moscow or bought lackeys of Arab petro-dollars? Perhaps in
some cases, this is indeed the reason. But the truth, I think, is more
disturbing than that. Anti-Zionism has in the past fifteen to twenty years,
gradually become an integral part of the cultural code of many Leftist and
some liberal circles - an enemy on a par with Imperialism, racism and
militarism - and invariably identified with these evils.
Precisely because it sees itself as "anti-fascist", this Western radical
culture is militantly anti-Zionist and can very easily slide into the
ultimate step of equating Nazism with Zionism, the Third Reich with Israel,
the Wehrmacht with Zahal. Unlike the radical Right, it does not desire the
rehabilitation of Nazism, it does not deny the Holocaust and at least in
theory it believes that anti-Semitism is a reactionary, racist doctrine to
be fought no less strongly than Zionism itself. Nevertheless, I would claim
that the falsifiers of the anti-Israeli Left who now rewrite the history of
the Holocaust as a story of Nazi-Zionist "collaboration" are no less
dangerous than the neo-Nazi "revisionists" and possible more effective.
Unlike their Soviet models, they may actually believe the libels they
propagate and this gives them a certain credibility - especially when they
are Jews. Their emergence was made possible by the general climate of
anti-Zionist opinion in the West, greatly stimulated by the turn to the
Right in Israel after 1977 and the Lebanon war, which provided the
opportunity and the opening. Recent works by Lenni Brenner, such Zionism in
the Age of the Dictators, or Tony Greenstein, Zionism - Antisemitism's
Twin in Jewish Garb - both written by Jewish Leftists (one American, the
other British) - are increasingly symptomatic of the times we live in.
Much more disturbing was the way that the Lebanon war provoked an orgy of
media denunciation directed at Israel's so-called "genocide", a fantastic
legend briefly given credence even in the so-called quality press in the
West. Suddenly, ideological opinions on the "fascist" or "Nazi" nature of
Zionism which had belonged to the margins of Western society, were taken
seriously and acquired a new respectability. Yitzhak Shamir's past as an
underground terrorist was, for example, scrutinized with extraordinary
intensity when he became Prime Minister in 1983 and his alleged contacts
with the Nazis were inflated into wild accusations about the historically
rooted "fascist" character of Zionism. It was not only the radical
Trotskyist fringe of the Labor and Left-wing press in Britain and other
Western countries that indulged in such analogies. They could also draw
sustenance; it should be pointed out, from irresponsible voices in Israel
itself who are frequently quoted in anti-Zionist literature abroad to
provide cover against charges of anti-Semitic bias and prejudice.
The anti-Zionist mood intensified across the political spectrum in the West
and thus a revision of the past and present with regard to Zionism began to
take place, for the first time reflecting motifs long familiar from Soviet
propaganda. For example, it was now alleged that Zionism had always allied
itself with reactionary forces and rabid antisemites in order to achieve its
"criminal" goals. It was not only detrimental to Diaspora Jewish interests,
but it had deliberately and callously abandoned the Jews during the
Holocaust to their fate. It was, moreover, a cruel racist doctrine of
chosenness, which had inevitably and logically led to the "genocidal"
policies of Israel in Lebanon. In the radical Leftist and neo-Nazi press,
and also in writings by ultra-Orthodox Jewish fanatics, Hitler and the Nazi
mass murder seemed to pale into insignificance alongside the new Israeli
"fascism" in the Middle East -depicted as a threat to humanity as a whole.
Wild rhetoric on this scale was fairly novel in the West, but in Soviet
Russia it had been official Orwellian Newspeak since June 1967 when Soviet
Ambassador Fedorenko denounced the Israeli "war criminals" in the UN for
pursuing Hitlerite policies in the Wet Bank, while the war was still in
progress. Brezhnev himself at that time gave the signal to the Soviet media
by stating that the Israeli "invaders" were seeking to imitate the actions
of the Hitlerites. The Soviets did not wait for the advent of Mr. Begin or
Mr. Sharon to brand Israel's leaders as fascist executioners. The late Moshe
Dayan and Golda Meir, leaders of the Israeli Labor government, were favorite
targets in the Soviet disinformation effort of the early 1970s, accused of
ruthlessly pursuing the Nazi derma of Lebensraum, of ruling hapless Arabs in
the spirit of a masterace (Herrenvolk), of establishing concentration camps
and even of sterilizing the local population.
At that time, however, there were few people in the West ready to credit
such obvious falsehoods. The Nazi-Zionist equation only gradually
infiltrated the Western world, partly through the channel o the communist
parties and the growing influence of Arab money and diplomacy after the oil
crisis of 1973 In addition, there were local causes, at least in Western
Europe, which helped prepare the ground. Rising anti-Americanism (and the
perception of Israel as an American stooge) was one factor; neutralist
tendencies and the growing strength of the peace movements, the policy of
appeasement (towards Russian and the Arabs) and the Third Worldism of many
European politicians and intellectuals, exacerbated the process.
At the same time, a subtle revision of the Hitler era took place in popular
works, films and even books by serious historians which perhaps indirectly
lent itself to the irresponsible comparisons that have been drawn in the
early 1980s between Nazism and more current phenomena. The result of all
these trends which were to culminate ingrossly disproportionate Western
reactions t the Lebanon war, was the definitive end of the brief era of
European "philosemitism" and pro-Israel ism, which under the impact of the
Holocaust had in fact sentimentalized the Jews as model victims. In their
place came new victims, above all the Palestinians - themselves sacrificed,
so it was suggested by the anti-Zionists, to make way for the creation of a
Jewish State in which they were fated to be objects of racist
discrimination.
These symbolic post-1967 reversals of image had their origins in the
subculture of the new Left in the late 1960s, which peaked just when the
Six-Day War had sent shock waves through the world and had transformed the
European and Western perception of Israel and the Jews. Though the New Left
quickly faded as a political force, its influence penetrated intro new and
more lasting trends such as the "Green" (Ecological) and Peace movements,
Feminism, a new immigrant and ethnic militancy, the impact of Arab and Third
World elements and causes at Western universities, etc. The anti-Israel and
anti-Zionist ideological bias of the radical Left was considerably
strengthened by these developments and it also spread onto the media -
especially television- where it began to exert amass influence. By no means
all of this anti-Israelism was anti-Semitic in intent and much of the
reporting of Israel and the Middle East was no doubt motivated by sympathy
for Palestinians more than by hatred of Jews. Nevertheless, the overall,
cumulative effect was to create a very negative picture of the Jewish State.
It is this background along with a significant generation change which has
ultimately made possible the current fashion of drawing the Zionist-Nazi
parallel even in the Western democracies, The political , cultural and moral
damage to Israel and the Jewish people of this process of delegitimization
has been considerable, though it is not necessarily irreversible.
Images are notoriously volatile and Western public reaction to the Middle
East in the long term is difficult to predict. One cannot say that the Arab
cause has made tremendous gains in Western opinion, but the erosion of
Israel's standing and good name over the past decade is certainly palpable.
Many gentiles in the West and the Third World who in former times were
sympathetic to the Jewish State clearly feel let down and disappointed.
Sometimes this disappointment can lead to hatred. On the other hand, there
are also many influential people in Western politics and cultural life who
have not allowed themselves to be swept along by the anti-Israel hysteria.
Moreover, in the United States, where the situation is fundamentally
different in many ways from Europe, the image of Israel and Zionism, while
somewhat dented, still remains largely positive.
But if the picture is not entirely black , there are many troubling points
of concern. It must be realized that there is a new generation in the West
which has now entered politics and is also acquiring influence in cultural
life. Many of the new generation have been nourished on extremely negative
ideas concerning Israel and Zionism. The image of the ugly Israeli, which
they have acquired through various channels, has undoubtedly shaped their
outlook on international politics. In place of the money-grubbing Jew or the
subversive Jewish revolutionary of anti-Semitic mythology, they have been
exposed to new and more up-to -date stereotypes - those of the militarist,
racist and now even the "Nazi" Jews seeking to dominate the world by force.
An image of lust for power and reckless militarism can already be added to
the rich armory of anti-Semitic type-casting nourished over generations by
Christian, Moslem, Marxist and right-wing demonology. A reflex
anti-Zionism
Post by DoD
which may not always have been anti-Jewish in origin and intention, today
all too easily falls into the established groove of an endemic
antisemitism
Post by DoD
that has been an central feature of civilization for more than two
millennia. This development is particularly dangerous for the future of
Israel and the Jewish people because through anti-Zionism, a revival of all
the latent murderous potential of antisemitism is in fact already taking
place. Those responsible for decision-making in Israel have in my opinion.
Been too slow to appreciate this fact and its negative political
significance.
The Jews of Israel have perhaps tended in the past to dismiss the
seriousness of the ideological and political enmity that has built up in the
outside world towards them. Unfortunately, as recent development have shown,
what the gentiles think and say can be as important as what the Jews
actually do - words do have political consequences! The power of
propaganda, of the media and images can often be as decisive as winning
wars -a fact that was once very well understood by the Zionist leadership,
but has tended to be forgotten in more recent years. The negative
consequences of anti-Zionism have been most palpable and obvious for Israel
in the international sphere - in its standing in the United Nations and its
diplomatic isolation.
But the internal dangers should also not be forgotten - for example, the
growth of isolationist and extreme nationalist currents in Israel and even
the seeds of an Arabophobic tendency which in the past was much less
significant. These trends need to be uprooted while they are still only
potential dangers, if the anti-Zionist propaganda offensive from without is
not one day to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Israeli society is still
far from corresponding to the diabolic fantasy-image constructed by those
who seek to destroy it. But it is also no more immunized than any other
democracy from disintegrative trends, from extremism, racism and intolerance
which may tear it apart from within.
There is no less serious danger contained in the anti-Zionist drive of
recent years when we come to consider Diaspora Jews. In my opinion, one of
the objectives of the anti-Israel campaign has been to drive a wedge between
the Jewish State and its exposed Diaspora hinterland. The more wicked and
diabolical the State of Israel seems in the eyes of gentile public opinion,
the less likely Diaspora Jews are to support such a State - this is surely
the calculation of our enemies. How could World Jewry back a "Nazi" State
after what happened during the Holocaust? How can it support and subsidize
racial discrimination in Israel? There has, in fact, been a growing chorus
of gentile voices even in the West in recent years suggesting that the
Diaspora Jewry dissociate from this so-called "racist" aggressive Israel or
else it can expect to pay the price in terms of a justified (?) revival of
antisemitism. For, as accomplices in Israeli "crimes" through their
financial and political support, Diaspora Jews are ultimately no less
guilty. Clearly this type of moral and political blackmail may have its
impact on Jews outside Israel and the long-term consequences are
unpredictable.
It may, of course, well be that if anti-Zionism continues to assume an
extremist and antisemitic character, then Diaspora Jews will be obliged to
organize themselves, and to strengthen their ties with Israel and Zionism.
To some extent, the Zionism is Racism campaign did eventually have this
effect. On the other hand, an opposite result is no less likely. For it is,
after all, easier for the Diaspora Jew to lower his profile in
Israeli-related affairs when the temperature of anti-Zionism rises or even
to join in the anti-Israel consensus, than it is to swim against the
current. Only time can tell whether Diaspora Jewry will wilt under the
pressures of a hostile non-Jewish environment.
One thing should, however, be clear from this necessarily brief overview of
the current situation. Anti-Zionism of the type I have tried to describe is
a poisonous flower which has deliberately encouraged a process of alienation
between Israel and the nations, between Israel and the Diaspora, as well as
a sense of self-alienation within Israeli society itself. It has thereby
created the danger of irrational reactions on all sides in order to overcome
concrete political and moral problems by violent means. Hence the urgent
necessity to analyze and struggle against this phenomenon.
http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/Antizionism.htm
"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should
understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel... and it is
most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of
the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of
Israel..." - Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum
"It (labeling people 'anti-semitic') has been a handy and effective
weapon which has destroyed countless careers and is responsible for the
totally illegitimate Zionist regime. Zionists have cleverly suggested
for a hundred years, by smearing their critics as 'anti-Semites,' that
the Zionists are the legitimate conquerors of Palestine. Zionists have
never actually SAID they were Semitic - just that their enemies are
'anti-Semitic.' Pretty neat...and completely dishonest. But in light of
the genuine anti-Semitism of the Zionists it becomes a bizarre
obscenity when these non-Semitic aliens accuse their Semitic victims of
'anti-Semitism'.
I believe this is the central issue regarding The Jewish Question. When
awareness of this matter becomes more widespread, and it will now, the
Zionist state will lose support even from the deluded Christians, who
need Semitic-type Jews running "Israel" for the fulfillment of their
bloody dreams. The Zionists will be exposed as pseudo-religious
gangsters." --J. Bruce Campbell
"Once a day on average I get a letter from someone asking me how I
could allow myself to be published and interviewed by Jeff Rense, the
popular web and radio host who publishes way too much anti-Israel
material. I have no problem answering, "Because he lets me, which is
more than I can say about the mainstream Jewish media." Jeff Rense is
an honest voice and he permits me to reach a huge audience of New Age
Lefties, and misguided Righties bombarded with lies about Israel.
-Barry Chamish Author: Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin, The Last Days Of
Israel - Israeli Edition, and Israel Betrayed
http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zionismdata.htm
So a few religious Jews are against Israel? That has all been covered....

BTW, you can stick Jeff Rense up your ass.
Frank Arthur
2006-10-12 19:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
A***@hotmail.com
2006-10-12 20:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.
jgarbuz
2006-10-13 18:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
R. Westermeyer
2006-10-13 18:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
idiot's not at all well thought out reply:

The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003

Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings. A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

Review

"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal

******

I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering".

He will counter with some source, no doubt a Dershowitz or the like,
and that will be that. End of story for a mind that hasn't transcended
the Mickey Fucking MOuse level of story. .

--RW


*********
www.tooangry.blogspot.com
*********
jgarbuz
2006-10-17 15:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.<
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
idiot's not at all well thought out reply: <
I'm uneducated? I'm the liar? We'll see about that.
Post by R. Westermeyer
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings.<
That is UTTERLY impossible! For one thing, there were at most,
according to the Palestinians themselves, no more than 790,000 refugees
in total. Not families, but in total. Are you going to tell us that
those 790,000 owned 1.5 million "individual property holdings?'
That is absurd right on the face of it, even if I knew what they meant
by "individual property holdings." By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
We can find out who's "educated" soon enough. Dare?
Post by R. Westermeyer
A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Review
"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal
******
I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering". <
If you really want a true education on the topic, why don't you read
"The Land Question in Paletine, 1917-1939 by Kenneth W. Stein.
Post by R. Westermeyer
He will counter with some source, no doubt a Dershowitz or the like,
and that will be that. End of story for a mind that hasn't transcended
the Mickey Fucking MOuse level of story. . <
Nonsense. If you really want, I'll even post the names of the hundreds
of Palestinian landlords who GLADLY sold land to the JEws as fast as
they could get rid of it!
I can assure you that the source I posted is INFINITELY more
comprehensive and based on shitloads of primary materials that the
author uncovered that had lain dormant since 1948.
You think you really know something on the subject? I CHALLENGE you to
a review of PRIMARY documents on the subject matter.
Defendario
2006-10-17 16:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.<
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
idiot's not at all well thought out reply: <
I'm uneducated? I'm the liar? We'll see about that.
You prove it yourself. You claim that "the Arabs never had any right to
it [Palestine] whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran."

That is clearly either uneducated, in which case you are excused for
mere ignorance, or a lie. Actually it is both, since you present your
thesis with the air of authority. We shall see indeed!
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings.<
That is UTTERLY impossible!
Yet it is cited. You are a loon, Jiggaboo. You deny proven facts.
<DRECK CONCERNING IND RIGHTS BINNED>
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.
Post by jgarbuz
We can find out who's "educated" soon enough. Dare?
No one is obligated to pursue your personal fetishes. If the Ottoman
empire fascinates you, post it in alt.history.turkish. It's only a
diversion here, and shows your weakness.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Review
"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal
******
I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering". <
If you really want a true education on the topic, why don't you read
"The Land Question in Paletine, 1917-1939 by Kenneth W. Stein.
Stein. Let me guess...
;-)

Yids lie, and thieves justify their ill-gotten loot.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
He will counter with some source, no doubt a Dershowitz or the like,
and that will be that. End of story for a mind that hasn't transcended
the Mickey Fucking MOuse level of story. . <
Your prediction proved exactly correct, and yet below:
=-o
Post by jgarbuz
Nonsense. If you really want, I'll even post the names of the hundreds
of Palestinian landlords who GLADLY sold land to the JEws as fast as
they could get rid of it!
That of course, proves that the Palestinians were dispossessed and
forced to leave the areas of their homes. If a Nigerian buys my fathers
house, does that mean my neighborhood is now Nigeria?

IOW, you are a simpleminded illogical old zhid. STFU already! >:o
Post by jgarbuz
I can assure you that the source I posted is INFINITELY more
comprehensive and based on shitloads of primary materials that the
author uncovered that had lain dormant since 1948.
That's a bald-assed lie. If you want dueling historians, you can drool
over the tomes at your leisure. The war against the Palestinian nation
goes on as we speak.

Resources here:
http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml
Post by jgarbuz
You think you really know something on the subject? I CHALLENGE you to
a review of PRIMARY documents on the subject matter.
I challenge you to deny that Palestinians are shedding their blood daily
to establish their rights in the tiny shreds of homeland (Bantustans in
today's parlance) in the righteous fight for freedom from zioNist tyranny.
z
2006-10-17 19:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.
"Certainly, the most influential factor affecting land purchase
priorities for the JNF in Palestine was the Arab community's stratified

social structure. Due to a weak Ottoman central government and the
evolution of local clan and family power in Palestine, large areas of
land became the possession of relatively few individual landowners.
Vast land-holdings, in amounts exceeding five thousand dunams or more,
were accumulated in large part owing to fellaheen indebtedness. This
was mostly caused by poor crop yields and unproductive methods of land
use. Merchants, rural shaykhs and notables, and urban professionals
gradually amassed areas of land as financial investments. In many
cases, individual fellaheen who once worked their village lands as
independent landowners became tenants of large landowners in the same
land area. Many of these large landowners also dominated local politics

in the sub-districts of Palestine and later formed a nucleus in the
Palestinian Arab nationalist movement. For a variety of reasons, the
JNF's preference was to purchase large areas of land from as few Arab
landowners as possible.


"In addition to the Arab social structure, other factors influenced the

ability of the JNF to acquire land. The cultivable land areas of
Palestine were not completely populated by fellaheen. Those portions
that were cultivable were not exploited fully by the extensive and
non-mechanized methods of farming used in the Arab sector. Many
Palestinian fellaheen, though able to survive at the margin of
subsistence for years were able to produce only meager crop yields.
When successive years of agricultural setback such as those from 1911
to 1920 and from 1930 to 1935 battered the Palestinian fellaheen, the
burden of retaining 'unproductive' land was weighed against the
availability of unskilled jobs in the per them labor market in many
urban areas. Coincidentally, the influx of Jewish capital into
Palestine acted as a magnet pulling economically weak Arab fellaheen
away from lands they worked. This in turn made it easier for the JNF to

purchase land relatively free of fellaheen occupants.


"A third factor assisting the JNF land purchase process was the
administrative chaos of recorded land rights in Palestine. In the
Ottoman period, boundary and size specifications, if provided at all in

land records, were rarely accurate. In addition, the physical
devastation in Palestine during World War I brought the destruction of
tax, agricultural, bank and land records. The British process of
reconstructing and ordering land rights enabled Jewish purchasers to
have legal confirmation given to purchases made during the Ottoman
period but never officially registered. The British passage of the 1926

Correction of Registers Ordinance gave legal recognition to the
unofficial land books which Jewish colonies used in keeping track of
land previously acquired via unregistered transfers.


"Finally, the most obvious factor contributing to JNF land purchase was

the constant stream of Arab offers to sell. Arab willingness to sell
their patrimony gave vital fuel to the Zionist leadership who were
already skeptical of the sincerity of emerging Palestinian Arab
nationalism. For most Arabs, their sagging economic condition forced
them to sell. Yehoshua Hankin told Hope-Simpson at the JNF office in
June 1930 that 90 percent of the sellers were immersed in debt and were

seeking relief by selling their lands. The economic situation of the
majority rural Arab population had not improved since the end of World
War I, and their economic condition in the early 1930s worsened. Other
factors influenced many Arabs in Palestine to part with their lands.
The projected land transfer prohibitions in autumn 1930 as initially
recommended by Chancellor flooded the JNF with more offers than it
could accommodate. The disturbances and the impact of the Peel
Report's recommendations in Palestine from 1936 to 1939 created a
trying situation for many landowners since their lands were not
regularly worked while others were short of cash, owing to the
prolonged nature of the strike. Still other Arabs wanted to sell land

that was geographically situated in the proposed Jewish state. In April

1938, Mr. Weitz of the JNF noted that so vast were the number of Arab
offers to sell to the JNF that no comparable period had existed since
World War I.


"There were numerous reasons why Jewish land acquisition succeeded.
These included: (a) knowledge of the Ottoman land classification and
registration systems, (b) awareness of the internal dynamics of Arab
society throughout Palestine, (c) knowledge of Arabic, (d) access to
British draft legislation and memoranda, and confidential
communications between the High Commissioner and the Colonial Office,
and (e) accumulated knowledge about land tenure and land use from
decades of experience before the inception of the Mandate.


from
The Jewish National Fund: Land Purchase Methods and Priorities, 1924 -
1939
Kenneth W. Stein
Middle Eastern Studies, V. 20 N. 2,
1984
Defendario
2006-10-17 19:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.
"Certainly, the most influential factor affecting land purchase
priorities for the JNF in Palestine was the Arab community's stratified
<SNIP CRAP>
Post by z
from
The Jewish National Fund: Land Purchase Methods and Priorities, 1924 -
1939
Kenneth W. Stein
Middle Eastern Studies, V. 20 N. 2,
1984
All we need to know, lying zhid.
z
2006-10-17 20:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
All we need to know, lying zhid.
Yeah, can't fill a teaspoon with a gallon; same goes for knowledge, I
guess.
f***@verizon.net
2006-10-18 03:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.
That's fairly standard for braindead bigot: the truth is now a
"red herring" because it doesn't include their lies.
Post by z
"Certainly, the most influential factor affecting land purchase
Purchase? Oh, now he's going to have a fit.
Post by z
priorities for the JNF in Palestine was the Arab community's stratified
social structure. Due to a weak Ottoman central government and the
evolution of local clan and family power in Palestine, large areas of
land became the possession of relatively few individual landowners.
Vast land-holdings, in amounts exceeding five thousand dunams or more,
were accumulated in large part owing to fellaheen indebtedness. This
was mostly caused by poor crop yields and unproductive methods of land
use. Merchants, rural shaykhs and notables, and urban professionals
gradually amassed areas of land as financial investments. In many
cases, individual fellaheen who once worked their village lands as
independent landowners became tenants of large landowners in the same
land area. Many of these large landowners also dominated local politics
in the sub-districts of Palestine and later formed a nucleus in the
Palestinian Arab nationalist movement. For a variety of reasons, the
JNF's preference was to purchase large areas of land from as few Arab
landowners as possible.
"In addition to the Arab social structure, other factors influenced the
ability of the JNF to acquire land. The cultivable land areas of
Palestine were not completely populated by fellaheen. Those portions
that were cultivable were not exploited fully by the extensive and
non-mechanized methods of farming used in the Arab sector. Many
Palestinian fellaheen, though able to survive at the margin of
subsistence for years were able to produce only meager crop yields.
When successive years of agricultural setback such as those from 1911
to 1920 and from 1930 to 1935 battered the Palestinian fellaheen, the
burden of retaining 'unproductive' land was weighed against the
availability of unskilled jobs in the per them labor market in many
urban areas. Coincidentally, the influx of Jewish capital into
Palestine acted as a magnet pulling economically weak Arab fellaheen
away from lands they worked. This in turn made it easier for the JNF to
purchase land relatively free of fellaheen occupants.
"A third factor assisting the JNF land purchase process was the
administrative chaos of recorded land rights in Palestine. In the
Ottoman period, boundary and size specifications, if provided at all in
land records, were rarely accurate. In addition, the physical
devastation in Palestine during World War I brought the destruction of
tax, agricultural, bank and land records. The British process of
reconstructing and ordering land rights enabled Jewish purchasers to
have legal confirmation given to purchases made during the Ottoman
period but never officially registered. The British passage of the 1926
Correction of Registers Ordinance gave legal recognition to the
unofficial land books which Jewish colonies used in keeping track of
land previously acquired via unregistered transfers.
"Finally, the most obvious factor contributing to JNF land purchase was
the constant stream of Arab offers to sell.
And this will send him over the edge.
Again.

Susan
Post by z
Arab willingness to sell
their patrimony gave vital fuel to the Zionist leadership who were
already skeptical of the sincerity of emerging Palestinian Arab
nationalism. For most Arabs, their sagging economic condition forced
them to sell. Yehoshua Hankin told Hope-Simpson at the JNF office in
June 1930 that 90 percent of the sellers were immersed in debt and were
seeking relief by selling their lands. The economic situation of the
majority rural Arab population had not improved since the end of World
War I, and their economic condition in the early 1930s worsened. Other
factors influenced many Arabs in Palestine to part with their lands.
The projected land transfer prohibitions in autumn 1930 as initially
recommended by Chancellor flooded the JNF with more offers than it
could accommodate. The disturbances and the impact of the Peel
Report's recommendations in Palestine from 1936 to 1939 created a
trying situation for many landowners since their lands were not
regularly worked while others were short of cash, owing to the
prolonged nature of the strike. Still other Arabs wanted to sell land
that was geographically situated in the proposed Jewish state. In April
1938, Mr. Weitz of the JNF noted that so vast were the number of Arab
offers to sell to the JNF that no comparable period had existed since
World War I.
"There were numerous reasons why Jewish land acquisition succeeded.
These included: (a) knowledge of the Ottoman land classification and
registration systems, (b) awareness of the internal dynamics of Arab
society throughout Palestine, (c) knowledge of Arabic, (d) access to
British draft legislation and memoranda, and confidential
communications between the High Commissioner and the Colonial Office,
and (e) accumulated knowledge about land tenure and land use from
decades of experience before the inception of the Mandate.
from
The Jewish National Fund: Land Purchase Methods and Priorities, 1924 -
1939
Kenneth W. Stein
Middle Eastern Studies, V. 20 N. 2,
1984
Benjie
2006-10-18 07:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.
That's fairly standard for braindead bigot: the truth is now a
"red herring" because it doesn't include their lies.
Post by z
"Certainly, the most influential factor affecting land purchase
Purchase? Oh, now he's going to have a fit.
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
priorities for the JNF in Palestine was the Arab community's stratified
social structure. Due to a weak Ottoman central government and the
evolution of local clan and family power in Palestine, large areas of
land became the possession of relatively few individual landowners.
Vast land-holdings, in amounts exceeding five thousand dunams or more,
were accumulated in large part owing to fellaheen indebtedness. This
was mostly caused by poor crop yields and unproductive methods of land
use. Merchants, rural shaykhs and notables, and urban professionals
gradually amassed areas of land as financial investments. In many
cases, individual fellaheen who once worked their village lands as
independent landowners became tenants of large landowners in the same
land area. Many of these large landowners also dominated local politics
in the sub-districts of Palestine and later formed a nucleus in the
Palestinian Arab nationalist movement. For a variety of reasons, the
JNF's preference was to purchase large areas of land from as few Arab
landowners as possible.
"In addition to the Arab social structure, other factors influenced the
ability of the JNF to acquire land. The cultivable land areas of
Palestine were not completely populated by fellaheen. Those portions
that were cultivable were not exploited fully by the extensive and
non-mechanized methods of farming used in the Arab sector. Many
Palestinian fellaheen, though able to survive at the margin of
subsistence for years were able to produce only meager crop yields.
When successive years of agricultural setback such as those from 1911
to 1920 and from 1930 to 1935 battered the Palestinian fellaheen, the
burden of retaining 'unproductive' land was weighed against the
availability of unskilled jobs in the per them labor market in many
urban areas. Coincidentally, the influx of Jewish capital into
Palestine acted as a magnet pulling economically weak Arab fellaheen
away from lands they worked. This in turn made it easier for the JNF to
purchase land relatively free of fellaheen occupants.
"A third factor assisting the JNF land purchase process was the
administrative chaos of recorded land rights in Palestine. In the
Ottoman period, boundary and size specifications, if provided at all in
land records, were rarely accurate. In addition, the physical
devastation in Palestine during World War I brought the destruction of
tax, agricultural, bank and land records. The British process of
reconstructing and ordering land rights enabled Jewish purchasers to
have legal confirmation given to purchases made during the Ottoman
period but never officially registered. The British passage of the 1926
Correction of Registers Ordinance gave legal recognition to the
unofficial land books which Jewish colonies used in keeping track of
land previously acquired via unregistered transfers.
"Finally, the most obvious factor contributing to JNF land purchase was
the constant stream of Arab offers to sell.
And this will send him over the edge.
Again.
Susan
Post by z
Arab willingness to sell
their patrimony gave vital fuel to the Zionist leadership who were
already skeptical of the sincerity of emerging Palestinian Arab
nationalism. For most Arabs, their sagging economic condition forced
them to sell. Yehoshua Hankin told Hope-Simpson at the JNF office in
June 1930 that 90 percent of the sellers were immersed in debt and were
seeking relief by selling their lands. The economic situation of the
majority rural Arab population had not improved since the end of World
War I, and their economic condition in the early 1930s worsened. Other
factors influenced many Arabs in Palestine to part with their lands.
The projected land transfer prohibitions in autumn 1930 as initially
recommended by Chancellor flooded the JNF with more offers than it
could accommodate. The disturbances and the impact of the Peel
Report's recommendations in Palestine from 1936 to 1939 created a
trying situation for many landowners since their lands were not
regularly worked while others were short of cash, owing to the
prolonged nature of the strike. Still other Arabs wanted to sell land
that was geographically situated in the proposed Jewish state. In April
1938, Mr. Weitz of the JNF noted that so vast were the number of Arab
offers to sell to the JNF that no comparable period had existed since
World War I.
"There were numerous reasons why Jewish land acquisition succeeded.
These included: (a) knowledge of the Ottoman land classification and
registration systems, (b) awareness of the internal dynamics of Arab
society throughout Palestine, (c) knowledge of Arabic, (d) access to
British draft legislation and memoranda, and confidential
communications between the High Commissioner and the Colonial Office,
and (e) accumulated knowledge about land tenure and land use from
decades of experience before the inception of the Mandate.
from
The Jewish National Fund: Land Purchase Methods and Priorities, 1924 -
1939
Kenneth W. Stein
Middle Eastern Studies, V. 20 N. 2,
1984
z
2006-10-18 15:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
Post by Benjie
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
priorities for the JNF in Palestine was the Arab community's stratified
social structure. Due to a weak Ottoman central government and the
evolution of local clan and family power in Palestine, large areas of
land became the possession of relatively few individual landowners.
Vast land-holdings, in amounts exceeding five thousand dunams or more,
were accumulated in large part owing to fellaheen indebtedness. This
was mostly caused by poor crop yields and unproductive methods of land
use. Merchants, rural shaykhs and notables, and urban professionals
gradually amassed areas of land as financial investments. In many
cases, individual fellaheen who once worked their village lands as
independent landowners became tenants of large landowners in the same
land area. Many of these large landowners also dominated local politics
in the sub-districts of Palestine and later formed a nucleus in the
Palestinian Arab nationalist movement. For a variety of reasons, the
JNF's preference was to purchase large areas of land from as few Arab
landowners as possible.
"In addition to the Arab social structure, other factors influenced the
ability of the JNF to acquire land. The cultivable land areas of
Palestine were not completely populated by fellaheen. Those portions
that were cultivable were not exploited fully by the extensive and
non-mechanized methods of farming used in the Arab sector. Many
Palestinian fellaheen, though able to survive at the margin of
subsistence for years were able to produce only meager crop yields.
When successive years of agricultural setback such as those from 1911
to 1920 and from 1930 to 1935 battered the Palestinian fellaheen, the
burden of retaining 'unproductive' land was weighed against the
availability of unskilled jobs in the per them labor market in many
urban areas. Coincidentally, the influx of Jewish capital into
Palestine acted as a magnet pulling economically weak Arab fellaheen
away from lands they worked. This in turn made it easier for the JNF to
purchase land relatively free of fellaheen occupants.
"A third factor assisting the JNF land purchase process was the
administrative chaos of recorded land rights in Palestine. In the
Ottoman period, boundary and size specifications, if provided at all in
land records, were rarely accurate. In addition, the physical
devastation in Palestine during World War I brought the destruction of
tax, agricultural, bank and land records. The British process of
reconstructing and ordering land rights enabled Jewish purchasers to
have legal confirmation given to purchases made during the Ottoman
period but never officially registered. The British passage of the 1926
Correction of Registers Ordinance gave legal recognition to the
unofficial land books which Jewish colonies used in keeping track of
land previously acquired via unregistered transfers.
"Finally, the most obvious factor contributing to JNF land purchase was
the constant stream of Arab offers to sell.
And this will send him over the edge.
Again.
Susan
Post by z
Arab willingness to sell
their patrimony gave vital fuel to the Zionist leadership who were
already skeptical of the sincerity of emerging Palestinian Arab
nationalism. For most Arabs, their sagging economic condition forced
them to sell. Yehoshua Hankin told Hope-Simpson at the JNF office in
June 1930 that 90 percent of the sellers were immersed in debt and were
seeking relief by selling their lands. The economic situation of the
majority rural Arab population had not improved since the end of World
War I, and their economic condition in the early 1930s worsened. Other
factors influenced many Arabs in Palestine to part with their lands.
The projected land transfer prohibitions in autumn 1930 as initially
recommended by Chancellor flooded the JNF with more offers than it
could accommodate. The disturbances and the impact of the Peel
Report's recommendations in Palestine from 1936 to 1939 created a
trying situation for many landowners since their lands were not
regularly worked while others were short of cash, owing to the
prolonged nature of the strike. Still other Arabs wanted to sell land
that was geographically situated in the proposed Jewish state. In April
1938, Mr. Weitz of the JNF noted that so vast were the number of Arab
offers to sell to the JNF that no comparable period had existed since
World War I.
"There were numerous reasons why Jewish land acquisition succeeded.
These included: (a) knowledge of the Ottoman land classification and
registration systems, (b) awareness of the internal dynamics of Arab
society throughout Palestine, (c) knowledge of Arabic, (d) access to
British draft legislation and memoranda, and confidential
communications between the High Commissioner and the Colonial Office,
and (e) accumulated knowledge about land tenure and land use from
decades of experience before the inception of the Mandate.
from
The Jewish National Fund: Land Purchase Methods and Priorities, 1924 -
1939
Kenneth W. Stein
Middle Eastern Studies, V. 20 N. 2,
1984
Defendario
2006-10-18 18:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
You are babbling bullshit again, zHID. All that amounts to a non-denial
of the truth Ben posted.

Why do you bother? No one here will fall for that tired Hasbara crap.
z
2006-10-18 20:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Post by z
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
You are babbling bullshit again, zHID. All that amounts to a non-denial
of the truth Ben posted.
And lo; answer came there none.
Benjie
2006-10-19 09:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
Here ya go, ya lazy hook nosed cunt


http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter03.htm



CHAPTER THREE
THE OWNERSHIP OF CAPITAL IN PALESTINE

The Government of Palestine did not inventory the national wealth in
Palestine. However, the Department of Statistics prepared certain estimates
of the shares of Arabs and Jews in the national wealth of the country. These
estimates did not include figures for urban building and lands or village
buildings. The estimates prepared for the value of land, industrial
establishments, livestock and commodity stocks are arbitrary, based on
values existing before World War 11. Therefore, these estimates can give
only a general idea and do not reflect exact values.

In A Survey of Palestine, Prepared in December 1945 and January 1946 for the
Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, the Palestine
Government attempted to provide general estimates. The Government stated:

Palestine must be numbered among those countries which have not attempted to
compile estimates of the national wealth. Nevertheless, certain basic
information is available and presented below .... in the form of a series of
tables in which the main categories of capital are enumerated and the shares
of Jews, Arabs and others are indicated .... The estimates do not include
any figures for urban land buildings and improvements, nor for public fixed
assets.(1)

The Survey of Palestine gives the value of rural lands but states: "These
values, although based on values actually ruling pre-war, are completely
arbitrary and have been designed to reflect the share of the two groups of
the population rather than the aggregate value of the land."(2)

LAND OWNERSHIP IN PALESTINE

The share of Arabs and Jews in land ownership in Palestine was, as of the
1st April, 1943, 24,670,455 dunums owned by Arabs and 1,514,247 dunums owned
by Jews. (A dunum is 1,000 square meters. Four dunums equal one acre.) The
following table shows the share of Jews and Arabs (including other non-Jews)
in the ownership of land in Palestine as at 1 st April, 1943.(3)

Category of land (Fiscal Categories)
Arabs & other non-Jews
Jews
Total






Urban
76,662
70, 111
146,773

Citrus
145,572
141, 188
286,760

Bananas
2,300
1,430
3,730

Rural built-on area
36,85 1
42.330
79, 181

Plantations
1,079,788
95,514
1, 175,302

Cereal land (taxable)
5,503, 183
814, 102
6,3 17,285

Cereal land (not taxable)
900,294
51,049
951,343

Uncultivable
16,925,805
298,523
17,224,328

Total area (in Dunums):
24,670,455
1,5 14,247
26, 184,702






Roads, railways, rivers and lakes
135,803

Total including roads, railways, etc.
26,320,505


Subcommittee 2 of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestine Question stated in
its report to the United Nations General Assembly the following:

Closely connected with the distribution of population is the factor of land
ownership in the proposed Jewish State. The bulk of the land in the Arab
State, as well as in the proposed Jewish State, is owned and possessed by
Arabs. This is clear from the following statistics furnished to the
Sub-Committee by the United Kingdom representative, showing the respective
percentages of Arab and Jewish ownership of land in the various
sub-districts of Palestine.(4)

Sub-district
Percentage of Ownership
Arabs & Others
Jews





Safad
68
18

Acre
87
3

Tiberias
51
38

Beisan
44
34

Nazareth
52
28

Hai fa
42
35

Jenin
84
Less than 1

Nablus
76
Less than 1

Tu l karrn
78
17

Ramallah
99
Less than 1

Jerusalem
64
2

Hebron
96
Less than 1

Jaffa
47
39

Ramle
77
14

Gaza
75
4

Beersheba
14
Less than 1


Note: The balance represents waste lands and lands under public ownership,
consisting mainly of grazing lands attached to villages.

It will be seen that there is not a single sub-district in which the
percentage of Jewish land ownership exceeds 39 percent, and that in nine of
the sixteen sub-districts the percentage of Jewish ownership is less than 5
percent.(5)

The Survey of Palestine contained information about the years and number of
dunums purchased by Jews from 1920-1945 as follows:(6)

AREAS PURCHASED BY JEWS, 1920-45

Year
Dunums

Area owned before 1920 (estimated)
650,00




1920
1,048

1921
90,785

1922
39,359

1923
17,493

1924
44,765

1925
176, 124

1926
38,978

1927
18,995

1928
21,515

1929
64,517

1930
19,365

1931
18,585

1932
18,893

1933
36,991

1934
62, 114

1935
72,905

1936
18, 146

1937
29,367

1938
27,280

1939
27,973

1940
22,481

1941
14,530

1942
18,810

1943
18,035

1944
8,311

1945 (estimated)
11,000

Total
1,588,365


The Survey of Palestine also provides details of the ownership by Arabs and
Jews of the citrus groves. The Arabs owned 127,377 dunums of citrus groves.
The Jews owned 120.897.(7)




CITRUS GROVES

Arab-owned











Variety
Class 1 dunums
Class 2 dunums
Class 3 dunums
Total dunums







Shamouti orange
84.215
16,369
4,902
105,486

Valencia orange
10,664
1,451
169
12,284

Grapefruit
2,090
216
48
2,354

Lemon
3,671
426
95
4, 192

Other citrus
2,539
497
25
3,061

Total
103, 179
18,959
5,239
127,377













Jewish-owned











Variety
Class 1 dunums
Class 2 dunums
Class 3 dunums
Total dunums







Shamouti orange
70,014
13,014
4,790
87,845

Valencia orange
10,214
1,732
1,096
13,042

Grapefruit
9,329
2,436
582
12,347

Lemon
3,367
445
165
3,977

Other citrus
2,629
627
430
3,686

Total
95,580
18,254
7,063
120,897







Ownership of lands by Jews in the various districts of Palestine was as
follows:(8)

LAND IN JEWISH POSSESSION, BY DISTRICTS (IN 1000 DUNUMS)




% of Jewish
land in each Sub-District

District and Sub-District

Owned

Conces-
sions
Total

%

Total

Owned










Gaza
142,5
64.2
206,7
11.9
1.5
1.O

Beersheba
93,4
64,2
157,6
9.1
1.3
0.7

Gaza
49, 1
-
49, 1
2.8
4.4
4.4









Lydda
256,2
8,5
264,7
15.3
21.9
21.2

Jaffa
130,9
7, 1
138,0
8.0
41.1
39.0

Ramle
125,3
1,4
126,7
7.3
14.6
14.4









Jerusalem
46,O
15,O
61,0
3.5
1.4
1.0

Hebron
11,O
-
11,0
0.6
0.5
0.5

Jerusalem
35,O
15,O
50,0
2.9
3.2
2.2









Samaria
146.7
5,8
152,5
8.8
4.7
4.5

Tulkarm
142,4
5,8
148,2
8.6
18.8
18.0

Nablus
0, 1
-
0, 1




Jenin
4.2
-
4.2
0.2
0.5
0.5









Haifa
367,6
39,2
406,8
23.5
39.8
36.0

Haifa
367,6
39,2
406,8
23.5
39.8
36.0









Galilee
597,s
43,l
640,9
37.0
22.9
21.3

Nazareth
126,O
-
126,0
7.3
25.3
25.3

Beisan
123.7
1.4
125.1
7.2
34.7
34.3

Tiberias
190.6
0,5
191.1
11.0
43.5
43.4

Acre
25,8
-
25,8
1.5
3.2
3.2

Safad
131,7
41,2
172,9
10.0
24.9
18.9









Grand Total
1 556,8
175,8
1 732,6
100.0
6.6
5.9

Total (excluding the Negev)
1 463,4
111,6
1 575,0
11.4
10.6





Figures as at the end of 1944, based on a research work by Messrs. Weitz and
Lifshitz on Jewish land in Palestine. Land in Jewish possession at the end
of 1945 amounted to 1,778,000 dunums, thereof 1,603,000 dunums by purchase.
Non-rural areas comprise towns, suburbs, built on areas in villages and
industrial localities (Dead Sea Works, etc.).

The Jewish National Fund made a study of Jewish villages in Israel in 1949
and stated:(9)

Of the entire area of the State of Israel only about 300,000- 400,000
dunams - apart from the desolate rocky area of the southern Negev, at
present quite unfit for cultivation - are State Domain which the Israel
Government took over from the Mandatory regime. The J.N.F. and private
Jewish owners possess under two million dunams. Almost all the rest belongs
at law to Arab owners, many of whom have left the country. The fate of these
Arabs will be settled when the terms of the peace treaties between Israel
and her Arab neighbours are finally drawn up. The J.N.F., however, cannot
wait until then to obtain the land it requires for its pressing needs. It
is, therefore, acquiring part of the land abandoned by the Arab owners,
through the Government of Israel, the sovereign authority in Israel.

Whatever the ultimate fate of the Arabs concerned, it is manifest that their
legal right to their land and property in Israel, or to the monetary value
of them, will not be waived, nor do the Jews wish to ignore them. Legal
conquest of territory is a powerful factor in determining the frontiers and
the sovereignty of a state. But conquest by force of arms cannot, in law or
in ethics, abrogate the rights of the legal owner to his personal property.
The J.N.F., therefore, will pay for the lands it takes over, at a fixed and
fair price. The Government will receive the money and in due time will make
compensation to the Arabs.

Under this arrangement the J.N.F. will acquire this year one million dunams
of land for settlement. The forces of history have given the J.N.F. the
opportunity - and the necessity - of acquiring in one year as much land as
it acquired in the long period of 47 years of unremitting effort. That is an
indication of the practical change which has come about as a result of
Israel's independence.

Within the first 10 months of the establishment of Israel 51 new villages
have been established on J.N.F. land. In all, 200 new villages will arise on
the new area of one million dunams. Most of them will be in strategic areas.
Besides providing the land, the J.N.F. is contributing 37 1/2% of the
initial cost of settlement. These do not exhaust the tasks that face the
J.N.F. It is also reclaiming the land, furthering the development of the
country's water resources, and, wherever necessary, afforesting areas unfit
for cultivation. In and around the cities it must provide land for housing,
a vital necessity for the rapidly growing population. These, too, are
enormous tasks, and if we do no more than mention them here, it is only
because they do not fall directly within the scope of this review.

AREA OF J.N.F. LAND IN PALESTINE (1947-48)

Jezreel Valley, Zebulun Valley, Jordan Valley
376,000 dunams

Galilee
208,000

Samaria
46,000

Sharon
112,000

Judean Plain
147,000

Judean Hills
39,000

Negev
95,000


1,023,000

Area of other Jewish land in Israel: 900,000.

Grand total: 1,923,000 dunams.









BUILDINGS AND APARTMENTS

There were in Palestine in 1948 four mixed cities in which Arabs and Jews
lived together, namely Jerusalem, Haifa, Safad and Tiberias. There were also
eight Arab cities and large towns and 833 Arab small towns and villages.
There were six Jewish cities or towns, 21 Jewish urban settlements and 266
Jewish rural settlements. Jewish statistics also showed that in 1947 there
were 919 Arab towns and villages and 293 Jewish towns and villages.(19)
Ninety percent of the Arabs who were living in small towns and cities
resided in individual houses built of stone. Ten percent of the Arab city
dwellers were living in apartment houses in buildings owned by Arab
landlords. The Arabs in villages were living in individual houses built of
stone. 80% of these village houses were modem houses and 20% were of
inferior quality. The Government of Palestine conducted a census in 1931 of
the population of Palestine in every town and village and the number of
houses. As this was the last census, the Govemment gave estimates of the
increase of the Arab and Jewish population. The increase of the Arab
population was estimated at 30.71 per 1,000. On the basis of this estimate,
we computerized the estimates in 1948 and the result was that the Arab
population in Palestine in 1948 was 1,440,274 and the number of Arab houses
or apartments was 360,068.

OWNERSHIP IN INDUSTRY

The Survey of Palestine dealt with the ownership of industry in Palestine.
There were 1,558 Arab industrial establishments and 1,907 Jewish
establishments. The details were as follows:

OWNERSHIP OF INDUSTRY IN PALESTINE

(As found at the census of industry, 1943)(11)

Item
Arab & other non-Jewish
Jewish
Concessions
Total



Establishments (No.)
1,558
1,907
5
3,470

Capital Invested (LP)
2,064,587
12,093,929
6,293.681
20,452, 197

Horse Power
3,625
57,410
133,673
194,708

Gross outout (LP)
5.658.222
29.040.679
2, 131,467
36.830.368

Cost of materials(LP)
3,9331429
17,552,836
499,993
21,986,258

Net output (LP)
,724,793
11,487,843
1,631,474
14,844, 110

Persons engaged (No.)
8,804
37,773
3,400
49,977



MOTOR VEHICLES AND ESTIMATED VALUE

The Survey of Palestine published the number of vehicles owned by Arabs and
Jews and their value in 1945 as follows:(12)


Number total
Jewish
Arab & other
Total







Omnibuses
1,342
566
377
943

Commercial





Vehicles:





Light
921
106
57
163

Heavy
3, 111
717
386
1, 103

Taxis
1,248
150
183
333

Private
3 ,051
343
281
624

Total
9,673
1,882
1,284
3, 166




ESTIMATED NUMBER AND VALUE OF LIVESTOCK UNDER ARAB AND JEWISH OWNERSHIP(13)


Arab 1943
Jewish 1942
Total 1942-43


Number
Number
Number






Cattle
214,570
28,375
242,945

Buffaloes
4,972
-
4,972

Sheepover 1 yr
224,942
19, 120
244,062

Goats over 1 yr
314,602
10, 174
324,776

Camels over 1 yr
29,736
-
29,736

Horses
16,869
2, 152
19,021

Mules
7,328
2,534
9,862

Donkeys
105,414
2,322
107,736

Pigs
12, 145
-
12, 145

Fowls (excl. chickens)
1,202, 122
669,506
1,871,628

Other poultry
16,394
74,259
90,653






Estimated total value at pre-war prices
3, 100,000
1,440,000
4,540,000






Note: LP = Palestinian Pounds






VALUATION OF RURAL LAND UNDER ARAB AND JEWISH OWNERSHIP IN 1943(14)

The values quoted are pre-war values (i.e., before 1939):

Fiscal categories
Arab & other non-Jewish
Jewish
Total


LP. '000
LP. '000
LP. '000






Citrus
18, 197
17,648
35.845

Bananas
230
143
373

Rural built-on area
1, 106
1.270
2,376

Plantations
8,098
716
8,814

Cereal land (taxable)
27.5 16
4,07 1
31,587

Cereal land (not taxable)
2,701
153
2,854

Uncultivable
16,926
299
17,225

Total
74,774
24,300
99,074






Note: LP = Palestinian Pounds






NOTES TO CHAPTER THREE

1. A Survey of Palestine Prepared in December I945 and January 1946 for the
Information of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry (Jerusalem: Palestine
Government Printer, 1946), volume 2,
p. 563.
2. Ibid., p. 563.
3. Ibid., p. 566.
4. Official Records of the Second Session of the General Assembly Ad Hoc
Committee on the Palestine Question, Summary Records of Meetings, 25
September-25 November, 1947, pp. 292-
293.
5. Ibid., pp. 292-293.
6. Survey of Palestine, volume 1, p. 244.
7. Supplement to Survey of Palestine, Notes Compiled for the Information of
the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (Jerusalem: Palestine
Government Printer, 1947), p. 37.
8. Statistical Handbook of Jewish Palestine (Jerusalem: Department of
Statistics of the Jewish Agency, 1947), p. 129.
9. Jewish Villages in Israel, Jewish National Fund (Keren Kayemeth
Leisrael), Head Office, Jerusalem, 1949, pp. xxi-xxii.
10. Statistical Handbook of Jewish Palestine, pp. 36-40.
11. Survey of Palestine, volume 2, p. 567.
12. Ibid., p. 568.
13. Ibid.,
14. Ibid., p. 567.
z
2006-10-19 15:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
Here ya go, ya lazy hook nosed cunt
http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter03.htm
Thank you, actually.
Benjie
2006-10-20 09:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
The fucking yids only owned 7% of the land they swiped in 1948, you stupid
cunt. Arabs owned 62% and the remainder was not freehold.
OK.... "fucking yids" 7%...
Arabs 62%
That's 69%..... "remainder was not freehold"..... so what was the other
31%? It might help if you just give us the primary source so we don't
have to keep asking all these questions about things that are so
crystal clear to you that you hate to have to explain to us all.
Here ya go, ya lazy hook nosed cunt
http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter03.htm
Thank you, actually.
You're welcome.
Iamhere
2006-10-19 17:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Benjie wrote:
Here ya go, ya lazy hook nosed cunt
================================================================================
Another bigoted crazy Goyische gynecologist is loose on this forum? I
swear--the name of it should be changed to soc.culture.femalegenitalia

Iamhere
Benjie
2006-10-20 09:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Here ya go, ya lazy hook nosed cunt
================================================================================
Another bigoted crazy Goyische gynecologist is loose on this forum? I
swear--the name of it should be changed to soc.culture.femalegenitalia
No need if you hook-nosed cunts would piss off.
z
2006-10-19 22:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter03.htm
Well, thanks again for the ref.

I do find buried in that site and your quote, this, which I think is
also relevant:

" Of the entire area of the State of Israel only about 300,000- 400,000

dunams - apart from the desolate rocky area of the southern Negev, at
present quite unfit for cultivation - are State Domain which the
Israel
Government took over from the Mandatory regime. The J.N.F. and private

Jewish owners possess under two million dunams. Almost all the rest
belongs
at law to Arab owners, many of whom have left the country. The fate of
these
Arabs will be settled when the terms of the peace treaties between
Israel
and her Arab neighbours are finally drawn up. The J.N.F., however,
cannot
wait until then to obtain the land it requires for its pressing needs.
It
is, therefore, acquiring part of the land abandoned by the Arab
owners,
through the Government of Israel, the sovereign authority in Israel.

"Whatever the ultimate fate of the Arabs concerned, it is manifest
that their
legal right to their land and property in Israel, or to the monetary
value
of them, will not be waived, nor do the Jews wish to ignore them.
Legal
conquest of territory is a powerful factor in determining the
frontiers and
the sovereignty of a state. But conquest by force of arms cannot, in
law or
in ethics, abrogate the rights of the legal owner to his personal
property.
The J.N.F., therefore, will pay for the lands it takes over, at a
fixed and
fair price. The Government will receive the money and in due time will
make
compensation to the Arabs."
-Jewish Villages in Israel, Jewish National Fund (Keren Kayemeth
Leisrael), Head Office, Jerusalem, 1949, pp. xxi-xxii.

Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation
from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. As of the end of 1993, a
total of 14,692 claims had been filed, claims were settled with respect
to more than 200,000 dunums of land, more than 10,000,000 NIS (New
Israeli Sheckels) had been paid in compensation, and more than 54,000
dunums of replacement land had been given in compensation. 10,000,000
NIS works out to about $2 million. Estimates of lost property value
range fromabout $1 billion to $150 billion (Khalidi, Rashid. "Toward a
Solution." Palestinian Refugees: Their Problem and Future Center for
Policy Analysis on Palestine (October 1994): 21-26.) with most of them
being around $1 to 2 billion. (Hadawi, Sami. Palestinian Rights and
Losses in 1948: A Comprehensive Study (London, Saqi Books, 1988),
Lewis, Frank D. "Agricultural Property and the 1948 Palestinian
Refugees: Assessing the Loss." Explorations in Economic History 33.2
(April 1996): 169-194, Peretz, Don. Palestinians, Refugees and the
Middle East Peace Process (Washington D.C.: United States Institute of
Peace Press 1993), etc.) Also there is the question of interest, which
after 50+ years would be several times the value of the land. On the
other hand there is the actual increase in wealth of the "refugees
under Israeli occupation"; according to the World Bank, agricultural
income in the West Bank increased 566% under 25 years of occupation,
and agricultural income in the Gaza Strip increased 194%. This is
compared to an increase of 245% in the US over the same period.

Against this, the Israelis are reluctant to claim sole moral and
financial responsibility for the entire refugee problem, as well as
having substantial uncompensated expenditures on behalf of Jewish
refugees from Arab countries, who number approximately 600,000,
similar to the official UN estimate of 711,000 original Palestinian
Arab refugees.

Even Benny Morris doesn't lay the entire Arab refugee problem at the
feet of the Israelis, His book describes the response to a ceasefire
offer "offering what the British regarded as generous terms. But then,
when faced with Moslem pressure, the largely Christian leadership got
cold feet; a ceasefire meant surrender and implied readiness to live
under Jewish rule. They would be open to charges of collaboration and
treachery. So, to the astonishment of the British and the Jewish
military and political leaders gathered on the afternoon of 22 April at
the Haifa town hall, the Arab delegation announced that its community
would evacuate the city. The Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, and the
British commander, Major-General Hugh Stockwell, pleaded with the Arabs
to reconsider but the Arabs were unmoved". (Morris, 1948 and After)

Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return. Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
f***@verizon.net
2006-10-20 05:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
As always: Israel trieds to promote peace, and gets only war in return.

Susan
Benjie
2006-10-20 09:10:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
As always: Israel trieds to promote peace, and gets only war in return.
BBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

They swiped a foreign land, have been brutalising the original inhabitants
and refuse to permit them to return. Such a nation of peace, you thick Irish
cunt.
Post by f***@verizon.net
Susan
Ron Jacobson
2006-10-22 06:36:32 UTC
Permalink
In article <eha3n6$1qlu$***@otis.netspace.net.au>,
Benjie <***@y'allknowbynow.com.> wrote:

(drivel snipped)

"Ben", perhaps it's time to stop lying about alleged
"crimes" committed by other nations?

Instead, can you perhaps deal with the REAL crimes committed
by your beloved nation?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/sep1999/geno-s07.shtml

<quote>

Between 1824 and 1908 approximately 10,000 Aborigines were murdered
in the Colony of Queensland. "Considered 'wild animals', 'vermin', 'scarcely
human', 'hideous to humanity', 'loathsome' and a 'nuisance', they were fair
game for white 'sportsmen'."

</quote>

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/07/31/australia.woomera/

"CANBERRA, Australia (CNN) -- A United Nations human rights envoy
has slammed conditions in Australia's Woomera detention camp, saying
the situation there in many cases was 'inhuman and degrading'".

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/refu-o13.shtml

"Australian navy fires on refugee boat".

RJ.
z
2006-10-20 15:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents, who repeated the 1948 pattern of
largely refusing to accept a deal with the Jews, whether because of
principle, pressure by militants, or expectation that the Jews would be
temporary and a purge of "collaborators" would follow after the Jews
left. As a result, they received status as "residents" which is a lot
more tenuous and subject to restriction. Presumably if they sell their
houses and move to another country, then decide to return and as
noncitizens are not allowed to, it will be proclaimed as "Israel's
fault", and somebody will wonder why a Jew born in Peru is allowed to
be an Israeli citizen while an Arab born in Palestine isn't, and the
Jews will have "stolen their property", by buying it. So it goes, I've
discovered historical memory seems to be very short.

In a similar vein, what I find interesting is how the whole question of
return and/or reparations wasn't a big deal in 1948 for either side;
Israel offers, the Arabs say no thanks.... And decades later, it's 180
degrees opposed. Clearly, it's not actually return or reparations that
are primary now, they're just a proxy for other machinations in the
politics of the area. Of course, pretty much everybody understands
that. I hope the ones who pretend not to are just playing dumb....
Benjie
2006-10-21 01:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
z
2006-10-23 16:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
f***@verizon.net
2006-10-23 23:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
I suppose you neglected to mention his "argument by lying" because NO ONE's
suprised at that one...

Susan
Benjie
2006-10-24 10:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
I suppose you neglected to mention his "argument by lying" because NO ONE's
suprised at that one...
What? The yids didn't swipe the land they now call israel?

You're a lying cunt, cohen, in addition to being a thick Irish cunt.
Post by f***@verizon.net
Susan
Benjie
2006-10-24 10:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
Que? What the fuck are you blathering about, Ikey?
z
2006-10-24 15:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned to the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a demonstration of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
Que? What the fuck are you blathering about, Ikey?
You wouldn't understand. You couldn't understand. Go with your
strengths, stick to the online tantrum postings.
Benjie
2006-10-25 10:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by f***@verizon.net
Post by z
Also, Israel offered to take back 100,000 Palestinian refugees during
the Lausanne negotiations in 1949
I did not know this! Thanks!
Post by z
. The Arab states refused to
negotiate, refused to recognize Israel, and refused to let those
Palestinians return.
And this I didn't have to be told :-)
Post by z
Nevertheless, over the years more than 50,000 Arab
refugees returned to Israel, since 1967 another 75,000 returned
to
the
West Bank and Gaza, and during the Oslo process as a
demonstration
of
good faith Israel allowed 90,000 Palestinians to return to the West
Bank and Gaza.
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
Argument by repetition. If it weren't for the addition of argument by
swearing, I'd assume you were 2 years old.
Que? What the fuck are you blathering about, Ikey?
You wouldn't understand. You couldn't understand. Go with your
strengths, stick to the online tantrum postings.
I'm sorry, sunschien, but I could neither make head nor tail from the thick
Irish cunt's blathering. Did you understand what she was on about? Fucked if
I did.

Now piss orf. When I want your opinion, I'll provide it. OK?
z
2006-10-25 16:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Now piss orf. When I want your opinion, I'll provide it. OK?
"Mommie, the Hebes are giving me the heebie jeebies!"
z
2006-10-27 15:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land". A few possibilities:
1) they take the offer, become citizens, keep their property, move
around within Israel, go abroad if they wish while retaining the
property and the right to come back and do what they want with it; they
can sell if if they want, and/or buy other property. They do, however,
take the risk of being assassinated by their brethren for insufficient
commitment to the cause.
2) they turn down the offer, remain Jordanian citizens, keep their
property, but take the risk of not being allowed back in the country,
as noncitizens, if they leave. They can keep the property or sell it,
whether they stay in the country or leave. They can move 1/2 mile
across the armistice line if they're really that committed to living
under the Jordanian monarchy; they can keep the property but risk not
being able to get back to it, or they can sell it first. Of course, if
they moved further into Jordan, they would then have had the risk of
being caught up in Black September, 1970, and either being killed by
the Jordanians or chased out of the country and losing their property
without remuneration, as a reaction to the attempted assassination of
the king and various other provocations by Palestinain leadership.

But anyway, what part of this represents Israel stealing the Arabs'
land by offering them citizenship?
Benjie
2006-10-27 23:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land".
It wasn't theirs to offer, you fool.
z
2006-10-30 19:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land".
It wasn't theirs to offer, you fool.
Ah..... Israel can't offer Israeli citizenship (as an option to be
accepted or refused without any effect on one's property holdings), and
to do so constitutes "swiping the land". This is getting good.
Continue, please.
Gary Renzetti
2006-10-31 02:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land".
It wasn't theirs to offer, you fool.
Ah..... Israel can't offer Israeli citizenship (as an option to be
accepted or refused without any effect on one's property holdings), and
to do so constitutes "swiping the land". This is getting good.
Continue, please.
Maybe I can offer assistance? Was it Hitler's right to offer French or Dutch
citizens "citizenship" in the Nazi empire? What about the "citizenship" that
Stalin "offered" Latvians? I understand that Tibetans are now considered
"Chinese citizens". Does that help any?
Benjamin C''ramer
2006-10-31 09:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Renzetti
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land".
It wasn't theirs to offer, you fool.
Ah..... Israel can't offer Israeli citizenship (as an option to be
accepted or refused without any effect on one's property holdings), and
to do so constitutes "swiping the land". This is getting good.
Continue, please.
Maybe I can offer assistance? Was it Hitler's right to offer French or
Dutch citizens "citizenship" in the Nazi empire? What about the
"citizenship" that Stalin "offered" Latvians? I understand that Tibetans
are now considered "Chinese citizens". Does that help any?
His grog addled brain is barely capable of comprehending the date, Gary.
Benjamin C''ramer
2006-10-31 09:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Well, in that case, another not well known piece of history is that
when Israel liberated Jerusalem in 1967, they offered Israeli
citizenship to the Arab residents,
Such a magnanimous gesture already. The Arabs owned the land you cunts
swiped, you fool.
I don't understand how offering the option of Israeli citizenship
constitutes "swiping the land".
It wasn't theirs to offer, you fool.
Ah..... Israel can't offer Israeli citizenship
You tosser. They don't own the land, ergo, they can't offer citizenship?

How fucking dense are you?
jgarbuz
2006-10-18 18:45:25 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
idiot's not at all well thought out reply: <
I'm uneducated? I'm the liar? We'll see about that.
You prove it yourself. You claim that "the Arabs never had any right to
it [Palestine] whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran."
That is clearly either uneducated, in which case you are excused for
mere ignorance, or a lie. Actually it is both, since you present your
thesis with the air of authority. We shall see indeed!
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings.<
The UNCC was both incorrect and utterly biased against Israel. If you
really want to, I'll be happy to get into it as well.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
That is UTTERLY impossible!
Yet it is cited. You are a loon, Jiggaboo. You deny proven facts.<
You clipped it verbatim from the Amazon.com website.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.<
You're only proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
We can find out who's "educated" soon enough. Dare?
No one is obligated to pursue your personal fetishes. If the Ottoman
empire fascinates you, post it in alt.history.turkish. It's only a
diversion here, and shows your weakness.<
Your ignorance shows my strength.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Review
"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal
******
I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering". <
If you really want a true education on the topic, why don't you read
"The Land Question in Paletine, 1917-1939 by Kenneth W. Stein.
Stein. Let me guess...<
Guess what. Everything original researched and written on Palestine was
written by Jewish historians, on both sides of the controversty,
because when Palestine was only 18% Jewish, they had more literates
than the rest of the population put together.
Post by Defendario
Yids lie, and thieves justify their ill-gotten loot.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by R. Westermeyer
He will counter with some source, no doubt a Dershowitz or the like,
and that will be that. End of story for a mind that hasn't transcended
the Mickey Fucking MOuse level of story. . <
=-o<
You don't even know anything about the land laws in Palestine. It's
like Einstein talking to high school physics students about his
theories. You are too ignorant to carry on a really substantive
discussion.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Nonsense. If you really want, I'll even post the names of the hundreds
of Palestinian landlords who GLADLY sold land to the JEws as fast as
they could get rid of it!
That of course, proves that the Palestinians were dispossessed and
forced to leave the areas of their homes. <
No at all. In fact, the British passed severe land ordinances requiring
that dispossessed fellahin be compensated with either land or money if
they were forced off the land. So the zionists bought land with as few
tenant farmers as possible. Look, you don't the first thing about it,
so it is useless to try to educate you.
Post by Defendario
If a Nigerian buys my fathers
house, does that mean my neighborhood is now Nigeria?<
The British empire, and the League of Nations RULED that Palestine is
the Jewish HOMELAND. That means, it didn't matter who owned what. The
country is the JEwish homeland, no matter how many Arabs live there, or
how little land Jews owned in it. But the Zionists wanted to buy as
much farm land as they could afford to provide territory for Jews to
settle and farm. So they were trying to buy up as much of the country
as they could afford to buy, and Arabs were gladly selling them as much
land as they could afford. It was actually the British who were trying
to make it as hard as possible for land to be transferred from Arabs to
Jews, and yet it was the Arabs who undermined the British attempt to
protect their lands by selling under the table as much as the JEws were
willing to buy. So while the Arabs were cursing and fighting the JEws
in the morning, they were selling them land as much as they wanted at
night.
Post by Defendario
IOW, you are a simpleminded illogical old zhid. STFU already! >:o
Post by jgarbuz
I can assure you that the source I posted is INFINITELY more
comprehensive and based on shitloads of primary materials that the
author uncovered that had lain dormant since 1948.<
That's a bald-assed lie. If you want dueling historians, you can drool
over the tomes at your leisure. The war against the Palestinian nation
goes on as we speak.<
There was only a Palestinian nation in their dreams. And that is where
it remains, in their dreams. Just like democracy in Iraq. Democracy is
to Arabs what pearls are to pigs. They prefer mud.
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
You think you really know something on the subject? I CHALLENGE you to
a review of PRIMARY documents on the subject matter.
I challenge you to deny that Palestinians are shedding their blood daily
to establish their rights in the tiny shreds of homeland (Bantustans in
today's parlance) in the righteous fight for freedom from zioNist tyranny.<
The Palestinians are shedding blood since 1920 because they love
fanatically bad leadership and watching their kids explode just to kill
JEws.
Defendario
2006-10-18 19:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by jgarbuz
...
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
idiot's not at all well thought out reply: <
I'm uneducated? I'm the liar? We'll see about that.
You prove it yourself. You claim that "the Arabs never had any right to
it [Palestine] whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran."
That is clearly either uneducated, in which case you are excused for
mere ignorance, or a lie. Actually it is both, since you present your
thesis with the air of authority. We shall see indeed!
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings.<
The UNCC was both incorrect and utterly biased against Israel. If you
really want to, I'll be happy to get into it as well.
I know. Everyone is wrong but IsReeL is right...
<rolls eyes>
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
That is UTTERLY impossible!
Yet it is cited. You are a loon, Jiggaboo. You deny proven facts.<
You clipped it verbatim from the Amazon.com website.
I did no such thing. You are delusional.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
By the way, since you call me
uneducated, can you tell us the difference in Ottoman law between miri
land, mushaa land, waqf land, mawat lands and matruka lands?
That's a pure red-herring. It has nothing to do with the plain
dispossession of the Arab Palestinians from their land.<
You're only proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
Hardly. I refuse to let you derail the thread.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
We can find out who's "educated" soon enough. Dare?
No one is obligated to pursue your personal fetishes. If the Ottoman
empire fascinates you, post it in alt.history.turkish. It's only a
diversion here, and shows your weakness.<
Your ignorance shows my strength.
You are babbling idiocy again. Dodge refused.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Review
"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal
******
I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering". <
If you really want a true education on the topic, why don't you read
"The Land Question in Paletine, 1917-1939 by Kenneth W. Stein.
Stein. Let me guess...<
Guess what. Everything original researched and written on Palestine was
written by Jewish historians, on both sides of the controversty,
because when Palestine was only 18% Jewish, they had more literates
than the rest of the population put together.
Cite? I seriously doubt that there are only joo sources. I am calling
bullshit.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Yids lie, and thieves justify their ill-gotten loot.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by R. Westermeyer
He will counter with some source, no doubt a Dershowitz or the like,
and that will be that. End of story for a mind that hasn't transcended
the Mickey Fucking MOuse level of story. . <
=-o<
You don't even know anything about the land laws in Palestine. It's
like Einstein talking to high school physics students about his
theories. You are too ignorant to carry on a really substantive
discussion.
Red herring. The land laws have nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing
of Palestine perpetrated by filthy zioNazi swine.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
Nonsense. If you really want, I'll even post the names of the hundreds
of Palestinian landlords who GLADLY sold land to the JEws as fast as
they could get rid of it!
That of course, proves that the Palestinians were dispossessed and
forced to leave the areas of their homes. <
No at all. In fact, the British passed severe land ordinances requiring
that dispossessed fellahin be compensated with either land or money if
they were forced off the land. So the zionists bought land with as few
tenant farmers as possible. Look, you don't the first thing about it,
so it is useless to try to educate you.
Your babbling is a non-denial. The Palestinian people were dispossessed
of their lands by jooz. It's pretty simple really, and all your
blathering about ancient laws don't obfuscate the facts of refugee camps
one bit. Those people want their shit back, or at least fair
compensation. Until you give the Palestinians what they are entitled
to, they are justified to fight.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
If a Nigerian buys my fathers
house, does that mean my neighborhood is now Nigeria?<
The British empire, and the League of Nations RULED <smak>
I grow increasing weary of reading thru line after line of jabber
concerning the League of Nations. You so love the red herring, you
should get a fishing boat.

All it ever signals is your inability to meet a question head on.
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
IOW, you are a simpleminded illogical old zhid. STFU already! >:o
Post by jgarbuz
I can assure you that the source I posted is INFINITELY more
comprehensive and based on shitloads of primary materials that the
author uncovered that had lain dormant since 1948.<
That's a bald-assed lie. If you want dueling historians, you can drool
over the tomes at your leisure. The war against the Palestinian nation
goes on as we speak.<
There was only a Palestinian nation in their dreams. And that is where
it remains, in their dreams. Just like democracy in Iraq. Democracy is
to Arabs what pearls are to pigs. They prefer mud.
More bigotspew from Jiggaboo. Figures. :-|
Post by jgarbuz
Post by Defendario
Post by jgarbuz
You think you really know something on the subject? I CHALLENGE you to
a review of PRIMARY documents on the subject matter.
I challenge you to deny that Palestinians are shedding their blood daily
to establish their rights in the tiny shreds of homeland (Bantustans in
today's parlance) in the righteous fight for freedom from zioNist tyranny.<
The Palestinians are shedding blood since 1920 because they love
fanatically bad leadership and watching their kids explode just to kill
JEws.
What you said is totally lunatic. You are beyond hope I think.

But debating you is good. It exposes the craziness of zioNist thought,
to their discredit. So keep it up.

Such a Mitzvah, already!
;D
z
2006-10-18 21:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Red herring. The land laws have nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing
of Palestine perpetrated by filthy zioNazi swine.
Oh, there's the problem; you don't know that lots of Arabs still live
in Israel (or Palestine, if you will). It's all the Jews that were
kicked out of Hebron and Nablus and Jerusalem after living there for
thousands of years when the Jordanians took over, and will be all
kicked out again when they get a Palestinian state. Glad to set you
straight, since you seem to be so upset about ethnic cleansing, you
wouldn't want to get the two sides backwards!
Benjie
2006-10-19 09:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Defendario
Red herring. The land laws have nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing
of Palestine perpetrated by filthy zioNazi swine.
Oh, there's the problem; you don't know that lots of Arabs still live
in Israel (or Palestine, if you will). It's all the Jews that were
kicked out of Hebron and Nablus and Jerusalem after living there for
thousands of years when the Jordanians took over, and will be all
kicked out again when they get a Palestinian state. Glad to set you
straight, since you seem to be so upset about ethnic cleansing, you
wouldn't want to get the two sides backwards!
Cop this, you whingeing cunt.

UNISPAL Home





U N I T E D N A T I O N S

Distr.


A/AC.25/W.83/Add.1
10 September 1962















UNITED NATIONS CONCILIATION COMMISSION

FOR PALESTINE

SUPPLEMENT TO THE INTERIM REPORT OF THE COMMISSION'S

LAND EXPERT ON THE IDENTIFICATION AND VALUATION OF

ARAB REFUGEE IMMOVABLE PROPERTY HOLDINGS IN ISRAEL

SECTION
I


Introduction

Paragraphs

1 - 8


SECTION
II


Valuation

Paragraphs

9 - 14


SECTION
III


Index of Owners

Paragraphs

15 - 31


SECTION
IV


Conclusion

Paragraphs

32 - 49









APPENDICES







A

Revised Schedule of Capital Values for Arab-owned land and buildings
in the Urban Areas.


B

Revised Schedule of Capital Values for Arab-owned land and buildings
in Rural Areas.






62-20191


I INTRODUCTION


1. In the Interim Report of the Commission's Land Expert dated 15 September
1961 (A/AC.25/W 63) the work of the Technical Office was des-cribed. The
identification project together with the first part of the valuation work
was dealt with in detail. The report explained the various methods of
valuation adopted to arrive at an estimate of the over-all value of all Arab
property in that part of Palestine which now forms the State of Israel. It
also described the methods and techniques adopted by the Technical Office to
estimate the value of property which belonged to Arabs who remained in
Israel and concluded with an estimate of the value of the property of Arab
refugees from Israel. Finally, the report contained as appendices the
statistical data on which the estimates of value had been based, and tables
of the resulting values in each sub-district.

2. The present report forms a supplement and should be read in conjunction
with the Interim Report.

3. Section II of this Supplement covers that stage of work in which the
valuation data obtained previously has been applied so as to ascribe a
property value to each individual parcel owned and then, by totalling the
value of all such parcels, to obtain a figure representing the estimated
over-all value of all immovable property in Israel owned by Arab individuals
as of 29 November 1947 . This valuation work has now been. completed insofar
as practical.

4. During the course of this work an endeavour has been made to examine each
individual parcel in relationship to other parcels and, when considered
necessary, to vary thy valuation data to reflect the greater or lesser value
each parcel was considered to have in comparison with other parcels in the
same general locality.

5. As might be; expected, the sum of the values of the individual parcels
differs from the over-all estimate furnished in the Interim Report
(A/AC.25/W 83). This difference is accounted for by the variation in values
referred to in paragraph 4. As will be seen the difference involves an
increase in the over-all estimate of approximately 1.75%.

6. Section III of the supplement concerns further work which the Commission
had under consideration when it issued its Nineteenth Progress Report.
(A/4921, paragraph 13). Immediately following the adoption by the General
Assembly on 20 December 1961 of resolution 1725 (XVI), of which paragraph 1
(b) requested the Commission to intensify its work on the identification and
evaluation of Arab refugee immovable properties, the Commission authorized
an additional stage of work namely, the preparation of an index of owners'
names. the calculation of each owner's share in jointly owned properties and
the aggregation of each owner's total immovable property holdings. Section
III explains the details and the progress of this work which has proceeded
simultaneously with the valuation work. It was impractical to try to
complete this work by 1 September 1962. The planning schedule calls for its
completion in the first quarter of 1963, but owing to difficulties
experienced during the course of the work it i s anticipated that completion
may be delayed.

7. Section IV sets forth the conclusions of the Technical Office on the
capital value on 29 November 1947of the immovable property in Israel of all
Arab individual owners and on the estimated value of that part thereof
belonging to Arab Refugees.

8. To summarize the results of the valuation work, the figures are as
follows:

(a)

Value on 29 November 1947 of Arab immovable property In Israel

LP 235,660,190


(b)

Estimated value on 29 November 1947 of immovable property of Arab
Refugees

LP 204.660,190


II VALUATION


For convenience this report is, as in the Interim Report, divided into:

A. Urban lands B. Rural Lands

A. Urban lands

10. Since for the purposes of the interim Report the method adopted for
estimating the over-all value of land and buildings in Urban areas comprised
a separate calculation for each parcel or group of parcels, very little
additional valuation hat been .necessary to ascribe a value to each
individual parcel.

11. Nevertheless, in the case of vacant sites the opportunity has been taken
to examine each parcel in detail with particular regard to its precise
locality and in so far as possible its physical characteristics.

12. Every available relevant sale price has been considered in arriving at
the level of market value in any particular area. The application of this
market value level to any particular parcel may give a higher or lower value
than an actual sale price on that parcel. This apparent anomaly results from
the influence of the other relevant sale prices in the area which were also
the basis for fixing the particular. market value level concerned.

13. With regard to Ramle and Beersheba Urban areas it has not been possible
to ascribe a value to individual parcels since identification is so far
incomplete as respects the data from which valuation can be made.

14. Appendix A sets out the values of vacant sites and buildings in each
urban area and may be compared to Appendix B/1 of the Interim Report.

B. Rural lands

15. It will be recalled that for the purposes of the Interim Report the
basis of differentiation between one parcel of land and another was the tax
category assigned to it by the Mandatory authority.

16. It was assumed that all land having the same tax category within a
village would have the same value subject only to variation due to its
location in different topographic soil and rainfall zones.

17. The valuation data was obtained by taking an average price per dunum as
indicated by all the sales which took place in the years 1946 and 1947
within a given village, area. The weakness in this method is that it does
not take into account the effect of uneven distribution of the land sold,
e.g. if all the land sold in any village were in a "high" value, area, the
result applied as an average to all the land in the village would result in
over-valuation and vice versa. While for the purposes of the Interim Report
the method could fairly be described as giving reasonably accurate estimates
over-all, it does not do so when each individual parcel is considered
separately.

18. Consequently, when the valuation of individual parcels was commenced,
each village was re-examined in considerable detail, and the following
procedure adopted.

19. In the case of "settler" villages, each parcel, and in the case of
"non-settled" villages each block and, when possible, locality within the
block was considered with the aid of large scale plans and smaller scale
topographical maps in relation to its location, aspect, proximity to
built-on-area, etc., in addition to the broad classification by tax
category. Thus, in the absence of physical inspection, all the factors which
might have affected value have so far as possible been taken into account.

20. The sale prices were also re-examined with particular regard to the
location of the lands sold, and where it was considered necessary, the
previously found averages were adjusted to conform with a more equitable
pattern.

21. Each parcel or group of parcels was given a value per dunum varying up
or down from the average in accordance with the physical characteristics
referred to in paragraph 19 above.

22. Finally, the value per dunum was applied to the area of each parcel and
the value thus deduced.

23. The same detailed study was made for land in garden and urban fringe
areas but, as might be expected, since these had already been examined as
small units, less adjustment was found to be necessary. However, it has not
been found possible to ascribe garden or urban fringe area values to
individual parcels of land in some non-settled villages where the Identity
of parcels constituting those areas could not be determined, with any degree
of accuracy. Consequently, all the parcels in the particular village
concerned were valued ignoring those "excess" values, and this excess 'value
was left as an undistributed lump sun and added to the total of individual
parcel values at the end of the valuation process, to be apportioned at a
later date should it be possible to ascertain the precise location of
parcels within blocks.

24. In the case of villages where the sales data was scanty or lacking
altogether, the same methods as adopted for the purposes of the Interim
Report were used with the addition of the more detailed study of the
physical characteristics of each parcel.

25. It is considered that by this technique everything possible short of
physical inspection has been done to take into account the various factors
which would affect the value in the open market of any particular parcel of
land.

26. In regard to the non-settled border villages where the location of the
parcels falling in the blocks cut by the armistice Line has not yet been
determined with regard to that line, the procedure adopted was to include
the value of every parcel in such block and then make a note of the "excess
value" in that block attributable to the area falling outside Israel. This
"excess value" is then deducted from the total of the parcel valuation for
the village to give a corrected net estimate of the value of that portion
.of the village falling on the Israeli-held side of the Armistice Line.

Built-on-areas

27. As stated in the Interim Report these areas present special difficulties
and no further information has come to light to enable a more detailed
valuation to be made.

28. However, detailed studies "of the problem have continued and in
consequence a somewhat higher value has been attributed to buildings than
before. Nevertheless, it has not boon found possible to apply a value in
respect of buildings to individual parcels of land, since there is no moans
of knowing which parcel of land contains a building and which does not.

29. Consequently, each parcel of land in the built-on-area has been given a
value as though it were bare land, leaving the calculated sum in respect of
buildings to be apportioned at a later date, when it may be possible to
ascertain the presence or otherwise of a building on the land.

30. In the case of industrial buildings when the Net Annual Value is in
excess of L.P. 20, the value of thy building has been included in the value
of the parcel.

31. Appendix B acts out the total values of rural property in each
sub-district and may be compared with Appendix B/2 of the Interim Report.


III INDEX OF OWNERS


32. It will be apparent from a study of Section III "Identification" of the
Interim Report that the identification work has bEen based on the situation
of the land by block and parcel numbers and the owner's name related
thereto. Consequently, it has proved very difficult to ascertain the
property of a particular owner when the block and parcel number are unknown.

33. In order to overcome this difficulty the Commission on 22 December 1961
authorized the Office to compile an index of owners which will enable the
property holding of any particular owner to be readily ascertained.

34. The opportunity has been taken to calculate the share value of each
part-owner when there was more than one.

35. With this information it has been possible to include in the index of
owners the aggregate value of each individual's total property holdings and
the pertinent details of the parcels in which he has an interest. At
present, an index is being made for each village and urban area separately
but no attempt has been made to establish a wider index to cover ownership
in more than one village or urban area. The effect of this is to increase
the apparent number of owners, owing to the duplication of names in those
cases where an individual owns land in more than one village or urban area.
The disadvantage is statistical and does not detract from the value of the
index since the owner will most likely know the general locality of his
property even though he may not know its full block and parcel number.

36. The compilation of these indexes of names which have been transliterated
from the Arabic into English has been found to present special problems. The
Mandatory records on which the identification is based did not follow
throughout any one transliteration system so that any Arabic name may be
found written in English in more ways than one. Moreover, the full name of
an Arab individual properly written should show the name of his father,
grand-father and great-grandfather or family name, in that order. Quite
often one or more of these names are omitted. As a result considerable delay
and difficulty are being experienced in sorting out the names in
alphabetical order and in identifying the same individual. Thus, progress in
this operation has fallen below expectation.

37. When completed for a village or town the index for that village or town
will comprise a number of cards, one for each individual, showing:

a. His (or her) name,

b. The block and parcel number and parcel area of property in which that
individual has an interest,

c. The nature and extent (as to shares) of each of those interests,

d. The value attributable to the whole of each parcel and to each interest,

e. The aggregate value of all the interests shown on the card.

38. It will also be possible to provide information as to the number of
owners in any village or urban area and the extent to which each owner will
benefit from compensation based on the value of property in that village or
urban area.



IV CONCLUSIONS

39. On the basis of the techniques of identification and valuation described
in the Interim Report and this 'Supplement the Office considers that the
figures set out below represent the Capital Value, on 29 November 1947, of
the immovable property in Israel of all Arab individual owners. The figures
are the sums of the value of each individual parcel.

Urban Areas
LP
68,265,117


Rural Areas
LP
152,395,073


Beersheba Sub-district
LP
15,000,000

Total

235,660,190


This sum of LP 235>660,190 is to be compared with the figure of LP
231,600,000 contained in paragraph 89 of the Interim Report. It shows an
increase of 1.75^ for reasons explained in paragraphs 4 and 5 of this
report.

40. In its concluding Section V the Interim Report describes the method used
to estimate the value of Arab immovable property in Israel which was not
abandoned by its owners or which was owned by Arabs who did not become
refugees from the territory now controlled by Israel.

41. Further studies have been made on this problem and additional material
examined. In particular, lists of the numbers of Arab refugees registered as
originating from all Arab towns and villages became available.

42. For the purpose of these studies the natural rate of increase was taken
as 35 per 1,000 per annum or an increase of 65% for the period 1945 - 1961
excluding the year 1948/1949 when no natural increase is assumed to have
taken place.

43. Using this percentage increase, it is possibly to reduce the number of
actual registered refugees in 1961 to the theoretical number in 1945.

44. By comparing this theoretical number of refugees with the actual
population as shorn in the "Village Statistics"* it is possible to estimate
the percentage of abandonment which is assumed to have taken place.

45. Where the theoretical number of refugees is equal to or greater than the
population, it is reasonable to assume that total abandonment took place.
Where the number is less than the population figure the degree of
abandonment is assumed to be in direct proportion.

46. The degree of abandonment established by this method is then applied to
the total value of the respective villages and the resulting figure gives
the value attributable to refugee property.

47. By the use of this method the value of non-abandoned Arab property in
Israel has been calculated at UP 31,000,000. This figure cannot be compared
with the If 34. 900. 000 referred to in paragraph 98 of the Interim Report
since the opportunity has been taken to use revised valuation figures as a
result of the year's activities.

48. For the purpose of arriving at an estimate of the over-all value of
refugee property, the sum of LP 31,000,000 has been deducted from the total
value of Arab immovable property in Israel.

49. The final calculations are therefore as follows.

I

Total value on 29 November 1947 of Arab immovable property
LP
235,660,190

II

Less estimated value on 29 November 1947 of immovable property owned by
Arabs residing in Israel
LP
31,000,000

III

Estimated value on 29 November 1947 of Arab Refugee immovable property
LP
204.660,190


* "Village Statistics 1945" published by British Mandatory Administration.


APPENDIX A

REVISED SCHEDULE OF VALUES FOR ARAB OWNED
LAND AND BUILDINGS IN URBAN AREAS

TOWN
Vacant Sites
(LP)
Buildings
(LP)
Total
(LP)

ACRE
423,542
919,385
1,342,927

'AFULA
984
-
984

BAT YAM
1,683
-
1,683

BEISAN
53.691
457,186
510,877

HAIFA
4,311,086
10,467,644
14,778,730

HOLON
123,441
890
124,331

JAFFA
7,559,740
14,094,203
21,653,943

JERUSALEM
6,371,160
12,062,701
18,433,861

LYDDA
438,690
1,403,399
1,842,089

MAJDAL
94,960
728,976
823,936

NATANYA
36,497
-
36,497

NAZARETH
219,907
1,412,635
1,632,542

RAMAT GAN
71,447
-
71,447

SAFAD
157,354
840,675
998,029

SHAFA 'AMR
52,814
284,330
337,144

TEL AVIV
2,366,740
134,020
2,500,760

TIBERIAS
201,253
524,084
725,337


22,484,989
43,330,128
65,815.117

Add allowances for: *




(i) BEERSHEBA


600,000

(ii) RAMLE


1,850,000




LP 68,265,1l7






* See Interim Report, paragraphs 52 and 53


APPENDIX B

REVISED SCHEDULE OF CAPITAL VALUES FOR
ARAB-OWNED LAND AND BUILDINGS IN RURAL
AREAS



SUB-DISTRICT





ACRE
15,051,225

Beisan
3,468,034

GAZA
19,579,534

HAIFA
11,757,629

HEBRON
12,443,989

JAFFA
23,560,057

JILNIN
4,357,696

JERUSALEM
10,598,408

NABLUS
540,660

NAZARETH
5,595,879

RAMALLAH
135,150

RAMLE
22,190,429

SAFAD
7,323,092

TIBERIAS
3,805,192

TULKARM
11,987,299


152,395,073




Add allowance for BEERSHBA*
15,000,000


LP167,395,073



* See Interin Report paragraph 84-88
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`
end
d***@gmail.com
2006-10-19 18:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings. A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
The PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous
"right of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to
which the ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of
course.

As for the Conciliation Commission, set up originally to faciliate the
long-dead partition resolution, it's amazing they're still around. But
evidently they ARE still around, and still as effective as ever:

United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the
Near East, G.A. res. 49/35, 49 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 49) at 94, U.N.
Doc. A/49/49 (1994).
Forty-ninth session
Agenda item 77
RESOLUTIONS ADOPTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
A
Assistance to Palestine refugees
The General Assembly,
Recalling its resolution 48/40 A and all its previous
resolutions on the question, including resolution 194 (III) of 11
December 1948,[...]
Notes with regret that the United Nations Conciliation
Commission for Palestine has been unable to find a means of achieving
progress in the implementation of paragraph 11 of resolution 194 (III),
3/ and requests the Commission to exert continued efforts towards the
implementation of that paragraph and to report to the General Assembly
as appropriate, but not later than 1 September 1995;
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/resolutions/49/35GA1994.html

The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe.
Post by R. Westermeyer
Review
"[Fischbach] presents the most detailed and extensive discussion of
the issues related to Palestinian refugee property available to the
public to date... The volume is an important guide to primary data and
is itself a source of previously unpublished information concerning
Palestinian refugee property and the compensation issue." -- Don
Peretz, Middle East Journal
******
I don't expect this cunt to actually read it. It's called myopia. Or a
cognitive distortion called "filtering".
In R Westermeyer's case, it's a matter of having his head having taken
up permanent residence in his alimentary tract, the better to absorb
the diarrhea of what passes for his brain.

Deborah
A***@hotmail.com
2006-10-20 00:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not belong
there.
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings. A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
The PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous
"right of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to
which the ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of
course.
The right of return was not granted by UNGAR 194 Dimbulb, it was part
of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights enacted by the UN on On
December 10, 1948, while UNGAR 194 only reaffirms that right.

Strangely the International laws were put in place as the result of
what happened to Jews, yet those who trample upon these basic human
rights today the most are the ancestors of those Jews.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within
the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and
to return to his country.
docremington
2006-10-20 00:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by d***@gmail.com
The PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous
"right of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to
which the ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of
course.
The right of return was not granted by UNGAR 194 Dimbulb, it was part
of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights enacted by the UN on On
December 10, 1948, while UNGAR 194 only reaffirms that right.
So, when is the UN reaffirming the right of the japanese to return to
the islands, "stolen" from them by Russia? I think, the japanese are
third-rate, compared to arabs, aren't they?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
...
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Soft enough, I guess, in the UN building toilets.
dsharavi@gmail.com
2006-10-20 00:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings. A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
The PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous
"right of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to
which the ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of
course.
The right of return was not granted by UNGAR 194 Dimbulb,
Changed your tune again, have you, Dickless? For decades the PalArabs
have been calling it the "right of return resolution" -- and you and
your fellow terrorist symps have been trumpeting it as the "right of
return resolution".

[flush usual crap from Jeff Dickless Gillis]

"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the
right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was
passed on December 11, 1948."
AntiZioNazi @hotmail.com, Wed, Dec 3 2003 9:44 am

"Actually there are many precedents in International Law with regards
to the right of return regarless of the lies being spread by JGB.
See http://www.badil.org/Publications/Briefs/Brief8.pdf for more
details on the International laws applicable to the the Palestinian's
who were forced from their home by Israeli occupation forces. UNR 194
was based upon long standing International laws and only affirmed the
rights of the Palestinians as guaranteed under those same
International Laws."
AntiZioNazi @hotmail.com, Mon, Dec 8 2003 6:12 pm

"The Right of Return has a solid legal basis. The United Nations
adopted Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948. Paragraph 11 states:
"...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace
with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest
practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of
those choosing not to return." Resolution 194 was affirmed practically
every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the
U.S."
AntiZioNazi @hotmail.com, Tues, Dec 2 2003 1:46 pm

And so on, and so forth. UNGAR 181 all over again.

Deborah
A***@hotmail.com
2006-10-20 18:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by jgarbuz
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. They have no right to take the land lived on for centuries from the
indigenous inhabitants.<
You mean former inhabitants, not "indigenous" inhabitants. In any case,
prove to us that one square meter of soil was TAKEN from any Arab
between 1917 (the date of the Balfour Declaration) and November, 1947,
the date of the UN vote for the Partition of Palestine.
As for the events of the 1948 war, including the refugee problem, that
was caused by the Arabs making war on the new state of Israel. Show us
wars that doesn't create refugees and abandoned properties.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.<
There is nothing holy about the land, except to the extent that the
Jewish bible implied it.
Nothing in the Quran deems that land holy. For Arabs, Mecca and Medina
are holy.
Post by A***@hotmail.com
3. Zionist who comprise Israeli Apatheid Regime conspired with the
Nazis and were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of
Jews.<
Yadda, yadda,
Post by A***@hotmail.com
4. If it was OK to move them in, then the precedent is there to move
them out and back to Europe from whence they or their ancestros came.<
The League of Nations gave explicit permission under international law
for them to settle.
I doubt that you could pass an international law forcing them to leave.
And even if you did, how could you force other countries to take them
in?
Post by A***@hotmail.com
1. If a criminal obtains something illegally, they have no legal right
to it.<
That is a total, unvarnished lie. It is the Arabs who never had any
right to it whatsoever, even in accordance to the Quran. Unless you can
prove from the Quran any different.
Uneducated dolt, or liar. You decide, inquisitive reader of this
The book. "Records of Dispossession". Author: Michael R. Rischbach,
2003
Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/vkvew
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
The United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine was
established in 1948 "to provide protection and facilitate durable
solutions for Palestinian refugees displaced in 1948." While now
largely dormant, in the 1960s, the commission compiled a property
database that contains some 453,000 records documenting around 1.5
million individual property holdings. A professor of history at
Virginia's Randolph-Macon College, Fischbach, who worked on digitizing
the archive, here presents a closely argued summation of what he found
there. The book will undoubtedly figure in discussions of the
Palestinians' "right of return."
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.
The PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous
"right of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to
which the ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of
course.
The right of return was not granted by UNGAR 194 Dimbulb,
Changed your tune again, have you, Dickless? For decades the PalArabs
have been calling it the "right of return resolution" -- and you and
your fellow terrorist symps have been trumpeting it as the "right of
return resolution".
No change what so ever you foul mouthed tart. Section 11 of UNGAR
194 does reaffirm the rights of the victims of the Israeli Apartheid
Regime's campaign of ethnic cleansing to return to their homes as
outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Post by ***@gmail.com
The right of return was not granted by UNGAR 194 Dimbulb, it was part
of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights enacted by the UN on On
December 10, 1948, while UNGAR 194 only reaffirms that right.

Dimbulbs desperate snip replaced:

Strangely the International laws were put in place as the result of
what happened to Jews, yet those who trample upon these basic human
rights today the most are the ancestors of those Jews.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within
the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and

to return to his country.
Post by ***@gmail.com
"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the
right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was
passed on December 11, 1948."
Yes, still as true as when I posted it. Did you have a comment or are
you just helping me out by reposting these truisims.
Post by ***@gmail.com
"Actually there are many precedents in International Law with regards
to the right of return regarless of the lies being spread by JGB.
See http://www.badil.org/Publications/Briefs/Brief8.pdf for more
details on the International laws applicable to the the Palestinian's
who were forced from their home by Israeli occupation forces. UNR 194
was based upon long standing International laws and only affirmed the
rights of the Palestinians as guaranteed under those same
International Laws."
"The Right of Return has a solid legal basis. The United Nations
"...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace
with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest
practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of
those choosing not to return." Resolution 194 was affirmed practically
every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the
U.S."
And so on, and so forth. UNGAR 181 all over again.
Nope, I was just debunking your continual lies, such as the one below
your foul mouthed tart. My Job is complete.

So, it has been proved that Dimbulb lied when she spewed: "The
PalArabs have no right of return, under UNGAR 194 -- the famous "right
of return resolution" -- or under any "international law" to which the
ignorant are so fond of referring--in very vague terms, of course."
z
2006-10-20 15:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
Strangely the International laws were put in place as the result of
what happened to Jews, yet those who trample upon these basic human
rights today the most are the ancestors of those Jews.
Dude, the ancestors of those Jews have been dead for years.
z
2006-10-17 19:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.
Well, with clear and precise geometric logic like that, who can argue,
eh?
Defendario
2006-10-17 19:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.
Well, with clear and precise geometric logic like that, who can argue,
eh?
The racism and bigotry of zioNazism are institutional, in fact the
raison-d'etre of zioNism itself.

QED
drahcir
2006-10-18 00:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Post by z
Post by A***@hotmail.com
2. Zionists Jews who pollute the holy lands are vile and despicable
racists/bigots.
Well, with clear and precise geometric logic like that, who can argue,
eh?
The racism and bigotry of zioNazism are institutional, in fact the
raison-d'etre of zioNism itself.
QED
You incredible imbecile, you obviously haven't a clue what a proof is.
If you had a brain, maybe your opinions would be worth something.
z
2006-10-18 15:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by drahcir
You incredible imbecile, you obviously haven't a clue what a proof is.
If you had a brain, maybe your opinions would be worth something.
If he had a brain? That's a straw man argument! (haha)
Defendario
2006-10-18 18:16:00 UTC
Permalink
<NOTHING WORTH THE BANDWIDTH>
Post by z
If he had a brain? That's a straw man argument! (haha)
Your surrender is accepted
drahcir
2006-10-19 00:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by drahcir
You incredible imbecile, you obviously haven't a clue what a proof is.
If you had a brain, maybe your opinions would be worth something.
If he had a brain? That's a straw man argument! (haha)
True. Sorry.
Ben C'ramer
2006-10-13 09:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Arthur
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
Explain to me that Jews born and living in the State of Israel do not
belong there.
There is no "State of Israel", you dopey cunt.
z
2006-10-27 15:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben C'ramer
There is no "State of Israel", you dopey cunt.
Then what shadows are you diligently battling with?
Benjie
2006-10-27 23:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Ben C'ramer
There is no "State of Israel", you dopey cunt.
Then what shadows are you diligently battling with?
Zionazi arseholes.
z
2006-10-30 19:43:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Ben C'ramer
There is no "State of Israel", you dopey cunt.
Then what shadows are you diligently battling with?
Zionazi arseholes.
I know what you mean. I'm battling flying monkeys here, and nobody
wants to help.
Benjamin C''ramer
2006-10-31 09:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by z
Post by Benjie
Post by z
Post by Ben C'ramer
There is no "State of Israel", you dopey cunt.
Then what shadows are you diligently battling with?
Zionazi arseholes.
I know what you mean. I'm battling flying monkeys here, and nobody
wants to help.
You're the only one who can see them. Put the bottle down.
Katrina
2006-10-13 15:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionism is a cancer
Zionism DataPage
"...it is our obligation to make it known in order that everyone should
understand that the Zionists are not the nation of Israel... and it is
most definitely our holy obligation to announce before those nations of
the world that the Zionists are not the spokespeople of the nation of
Israel..." - Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum
"It (labeling people 'anti-semitic') has been a handy and effective
weapon which has destroyed countless careers and is responsible for the
totally illegitimate Zionist regime. Zionists have cleverly suggested
for a hundred years, by smearing their critics as 'anti-Semites,' that
the Zionists are the legitimate conquerors of Palestine. Zionists have
never actually SAID they were Semitic - just that their enemies are
'anti-Semitic.' Pretty neat...and completely dishonest. But in light of
the genuine anti-Semitism of the Zionists it becomes a bizarre
obscenity when these non-Semitic aliens accuse their Semitic victims of
'anti-Semitism'.
I believe this is the central issue regarding The Jewish Question. When
awareness of this matter becomes more widespread, and it will now, the
Zionist state will lose support even from the deluded Christians, who
need Semitic-type Jews running "Israel" for the fulfillment of their
bloody dreams. The Zionists will be exposed as pseudo-religious
gangsters." --J. Bruce Campbell
"Once a day on average I get a letter from someone asking me how I
could allow myself to be published and interviewed by Jeff Rense, the
popular web and radio host who publishes way too much anti-Israel
material. I have no problem answering, "Because he lets me, which is
more than I can say about the mainstream Jewish media." Jeff Rense is
an honest voice and he permits me to reach a huge audience of New Age
Lefties, and misguided Righties bombarded with lies about Israel.
-Barry Chamish Author: Who Murdered Yitzhak Rabin, The Last Days Of
Israel - Israeli Edition, and Israel Betrayed
http://www.rense.com/Datapages/zionismdata.htm
I came across your most interesting articles and find myself in
agreement
with what you say in relation to the West and the system of capitalism
and
imperialism. I think the views expressed and articles written are
incisive
and to the point in that respect.

Look forward to hearing from you,
John of Aix
2006-10-12 20:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all lick
their butts.

So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
DoD
2006-10-12 21:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all lick
their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have tacitly
been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have been posting
articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all along.

Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the mirror,
think about the article and your comments.... and honestly from your soul
realize what you have been all along..... say to yourself..... Damn, I
really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind the cover of anti-zionism
anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
John of Aix
2006-10-13 07:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all
lick their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have
been posting articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all
along.
I have never denied that some people don't like Jews, which is what I
state here so don't try and play the smart arse by adding your own
opinions on to it.
Post by DoD
Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the
mirror, think about the article and your comments.... and honestly
from your soul realize what you have been all along..... say to
yourself..... Damn, I really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind
the cover of anti-zionism anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
Keep trying little one for you see we are not brainwashed morons who
believe this Zionist bollocks, nor are we scared shits who will be
frightened by a bunch of pisspots like you and your mates.

But tell me, why do you spend so much time trying to prove that everyone
is 'anti-semitic'? What if they are, what advantage is that for you? It
couldn't be for the chance to whine some more could it? Do you see other
people coming on here wailing about people being anti-my lot or anti-my
dad's lot? There is only one group of constant whiners and you
are part of that. The more you whine the more the world will despise you
DoD
2006-10-13 15:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all
lick their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have
been posting articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all
along.
I have never denied that some people don't like Jews, which is what I
state here so don't try and play the smart arse by adding your own
opinions on to it.
Post by DoD
Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the
mirror, think about the article and your comments.... and honestly
from your soul realize what you have been all along..... say to
yourself..... Damn, I really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind
the cover of anti-zionism anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
Keep trying little one for you see we are not brainwashed morons who
believe this Zionist bollocks, nor are we scared shits who will be
frightened by a bunch of pisspots like you and your mates.
But tell me, why do you spend so much time trying to prove that everyone
is 'anti-semitic'? What if they are, what advantage is that for you? It
couldn't be for the chance to whine some more could it? Do you see other
people coming on here wailing about people being anti-my lot or anti-my
dad's lot? There is only one group of constant whiners and you
are part of that. The more you whine the more the world will despise you
Oh for petes sake, John, as much as I "whine" about anti-semites, you
"whine" about anti-French. Get over yourself already.
Arash on my Ass
2006-10-13 15:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all
lick their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have
been posting articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all
along.
I have never denied that some people don't like Jews, which is what I
state here so don't try and play the smart arse by adding your own
opinions on to it.
Post by DoD
Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the
mirror, think about the article and your comments.... and honestly
from your soul realize what you have been all along..... say to
yourself..... Damn, I really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind
the cover of anti-zionism anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
Keep trying little one for you see we are not brainwashed morons who
believe this Zionist bollocks, nor are we scared shits who will be
frightened by a bunch of pisspots like you and your mates.
But tell me, why do you spend so much time trying to prove that everyone
is 'anti-semitic'? What if they are, what advantage is that for you? It
couldn't be for the chance to whine some more could it? Do you see other
people coming on here wailing about people being anti-my lot or anti-my
dad's lot? There is only one group of constant whiners and you
are part of that. The more you whine the more the world will despise you
Oh for petes sake, John, as much as I "whine" about anti-semites, you
"whine" about anti-French. Get over yourself already.
He can't help it. He's a cheese-eating surrender monkey. And lets not
forget what the Frogs did to Dreyfus.
John of Aix
2006-10-13 21:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arash on my Ass
He can't help it. He's a cheese-eating surrender monkey. And lets not
forget what the Frogs did to Dreyfus.
Is this really the best you could manage? Do you know people throughout
the world may be reading this, your chance at fame, and all you can do
to show what wit and intelligence you have is to cite a few clichés.

Why not turn off your PC, get a beer and some snacks and sit down in
your trailer to watch a series on TV and put on a few more pounds? It'll
be far more useful to the world, you'll be dead all the quicker that
way.
John of Aix
2006-10-13 21:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot,
the Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we
must all lick their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have
been posting articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all
along.
I have never denied that some people don't like Jews, which is what I
state here so don't try and play the smart arse by adding your own
opinions on to it.
Post by DoD
Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the
mirror, think about the article and your comments.... and honestly
from your soul realize what you have been all along..... say to
yourself..... Damn, I really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind
the cover of anti-zionism anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
Keep trying little one for you see we are not brainwashed morons who
believe this Zionist bollocks, nor are we scared shits who will be
frightened by a bunch of pisspots like you and your mates.
But tell me, why do you spend so much time trying to prove that
everyone is 'anti-semitic'? What if they are, what advantage is that
for you? It couldn't be for the chance to whine some more could it?
Do you see other people coming on here wailing about people being
anti-my lot or anti-my dad's lot? There is only one group of
constant whiners and you
are part of that. The more you whine the more the world will despise you
Oh for petes sake, John, as much as I "whine" about anti-semites, you
"whine" about anti-French. Get over yourself already.
Perfetly untrue. I correct people whent hey sepak nonsense about Frace
but it stops there.

But forget thatandlet's be serious for a moment.

I am not anti-Jewish nor could I be for several reasons. Jews have
helped me several times in my life in a way that was very important to
me, not because they were Jews (though perhaps their culture played a
part in that) but because they were human beings and humanists.
I love music and there Jews have given a fantastic amount. And in
philosophy, maths, literature, science etc. The Jews have made a
magnificent contribution to western culture and only a fool would deny
that.

But why? Are they the/a chosen people? One could think so when judging
by their success. But as a rationalist I can't take this road and have
to look elsewhere. Perhaps the simple fact that one considers oneself to
be part of a 'chosen people' is enough of a spur to great things.
Perhaps the constant vilification the Jews have known over the centuries
is the cause, a fight back to prove themselves. Perhaps something
completely different ((c) Monty Python). I don't know. Whatever, the
facts are there, Judaism has given birth to a group of people which
plays a major part in our culture.

But Judaism is a religion, a philosophy. The Jews are not a race,
despite their efforts at matrilineal purety of heritage, and it is this
aspect of the approachof some Jews that I object to. A Jew does not need
to 'see you next year in Jerusalem' to be a Jew just as a Catholic does
not need to be in Rome. Judaism became a force in present day Palestine
a couple of millenia ago to be sure (though the Jews came in fact from
further north, 'Iraq' probably) but I do not see the necessity to
actually be in Palestine and, historically I can see no justification
for it, even if I can find sympathy with this need after the horrors of
WWII.

This desire for a state called Israel is what I term Zionism and I do
not agree with it. I belive the creatio of the stateof Israel was a
great historical mistake. But it is done, we have to deal wxith it. I am
for its disappearance butnot in the sense of its annihilation, but
through the foramtion of a palestinain state than encompasses all the
Palestinians, Jew and Arab alike.
Let the Jews live freely where they will, no one will lose in the
exchange, the same for Catholics, Hindus, Muslims and all the other
believers in sky fairies. That's life. ButI am no more for Jewish states
as I am for Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or Flying Spaghetti monster states.

Can you see the difference?
DoD
2006-10-13 23:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot,
the Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we
must all lick their butts.
So I repeat, fuck off with your whining. Some people don't like the
Jews, get used to it.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have
been posting articles to soc.culture.europe. But I have known all
along.
I have never denied that some people don't like Jews, which is what I
state here so don't try and play the smart arse by adding your own
opinions on to it.
Post by DoD
Now, tommorrow when you get up to shave, when you are looking in the
mirror, think about the article and your comments.... and honestly
from your soul realize what you have been all along..... say to
yourself..... Damn, I really am an anti-semite. I can't hide behind
the cover of anti-zionism anymore. Not to myself or anyone else.
Keep trying little one for you see we are not brainwashed morons who
believe this Zionist bollocks, nor are we scared shits who will be
frightened by a bunch of pisspots like you and your mates.
But tell me, why do you spend so much time trying to prove that
everyone is 'anti-semitic'? What if they are, what advantage is that
for you? It couldn't be for the chance to whine some more could it?
Do you see other people coming on here wailing about people being
anti-my lot or anti-my dad's lot? There is only one group of
constant whiners and you
are part of that. The more you whine the more the world will despise you
Oh for petes sake, John, as much as I "whine" about anti-semites, you
"whine" about anti-French. Get over yourself already.
Perfetly untrue. I correct people whent hey sepak nonsense about Frace
but it stops there.
But forget thatandlet's be serious for a moment.
I am not anti-Jewish nor could I be for several reasons. Jews have
helped me several times in my life in a way that was very important to
me, not because they were Jews (though perhaps their culture played a
part in that) but because they were human beings and humanists.
I love music and there Jews have given a fantastic amount. And in
philosophy, maths, literature, science etc. The Jews have made a
magnificent contribution to western culture and only a fool would deny
that.
But why? Are they the/a chosen people? One could think so when judging
by their success. But as a rationalist I can't take this road and have
to look elsewhere. Perhaps the simple fact that one considers oneself to
be part of a 'chosen people' is enough of a spur to great things.
Perhaps the constant vilification the Jews have known over the centuries
is the cause, a fight back to prove themselves. Perhaps something
completely different ((c) Monty Python). I don't know. Whatever, the
facts are there, Judaism has given birth to a group of people which
plays a major part in our culture.
But Judaism is a religion, a philosophy. The Jews are not a race,
despite their efforts at matrilineal purety of heritage, and it is this
aspect of the approachof some Jews that I object to. A Jew does not need
to 'see you next year in Jerusalem' to be a Jew just as a Catholic does
not need to be in Rome. Judaism became a force in present day Palestine
a couple of millenia ago to be sure (though the Jews came in fact from
further north, 'Iraq' probably) but I do not see the necessity to
actually be in Palestine and, historically I can see no justification
for it, even if I can find sympathy with this need after the horrors of
WWII.
This desire for a state called Israel is what I term Zionism and I do
not agree with it. I belive the creatio of the stateof Israel was a
great historical mistake. But it is done, we have to deal wxith it. I am
for its disappearance butnot in the sense of its annihilation, but
through the foramtion of a palestinain state than encompasses all the
Palestinians, Jew and Arab alike.
Let the Jews live freely where they will, no one will lose in the
exchange, the same for Catholics, Hindus, Muslims and all the other
believers in sky fairies. That's life. ButI am no more for Jewish states
as I am for Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or Flying Spaghetti monster states.
Can you see the difference?
Not really, because (I don't have the figures) but a bevy of Jews have no
interest in religion... So if they don't practice Judaism, what do you think
they become, Chinese? Nope they still are what? Jews..... There are plenty,
I am told, of secular Jews in Israel.

Also Israel, has one rule that goes against Jewish law and that is that you
don't have to be a Jew by conversion or Jew by having the mother being
Jewish. You are considered a Jew by having Jewish roots no matter which
side. So the sky pixie part is taken right out of your argument.

So Italians have their own state, Serbs have theirs, Koreans have theirs,
Arabs have a shitload of their own.... Why not the Jews?

Read the article that I posted and you will see why, anti-zionism is the new
anti-semitism....

B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
Mirelle
2006-10-13 23:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???

Mirelle
DoD
2006-10-13 23:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?

Listen Mirelle, this conversation is not for you.... I am putting the no
flakes allowed sign out.... Now beat it.
Mirelle
2006-10-14 21:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.

Mirelle
Firnando
2006-10-15 13:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Repost
Mirelle
2006-10-15 17:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Firnando
Repost
:-)

Mirelle
Post by Firnando
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Repost
d***@yahoo.com
2006-10-16 22:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider themselves
chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and claim that it is a
Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.

Deborah
John of Aix
2006-10-17 17:05:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.
How the fucl would you know you daft cunt? No goddam argument just,
"it's a lie, and because I say it then that is enough'. You really are a
stupid little piece of crap aren't you?
DoD
2006-10-17 17:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.
How the fucl would you know you daft cunt? No goddam argument just,
"it's a lie, and because I say it then that is enough'. You really are a
stupid little piece of crap aren't you?
IF YOU followed any of the M.E. forums, then you would know that Mirelle
does nothing but lie.
Defendario
2006-10-17 18:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.
How the fucl would you know you daft cunt? No goddam argument just,
"it's a lie, and because I say it then that is enough'. You really are a
stupid little piece of crap aren't you?
IF YOU followed any of the M.E. forums,
Who the fuk died and made /you/ King of UseNet, DooDoo?
Post by DoD
does nothing but lie.
There is not such a person. You are illogical.
DoD
2006-10-17 20:56:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.
How the fucl would you know you daft cunt? No goddam argument just,
"it's a lie, and because I say it then that is enough'. You really are a
stupid little piece of crap aren't you?
IF YOU followed any of the M.E. forums,
Who the fuk died and made /you/ King of UseNet, DooDoo?
G-d did.
d***@gmail.com
2006-10-17 23:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
Post by Mirelle
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
DuD,
If that were the case then why is it TAUGHT in Synagogues ???
How would you know what is taught in a Synagogue?
DuD,
My husband David went to Synagogue in New York as child until his Bar
Mitzvah.
First lie from Mirelle (in this post, anyway).
Post by Mirelle
After that his parents did not insist he had to go anymore.
He was the one who let me in on the dirty little secret about the
Racism of Jews toward Goyums.
Second, and obvious, lie from Mirelle.
Post by Mirelle
He hates all things racist.
Including 'The Chosen People' racism in Judaism.
Mirelle
Third, and equally obvious, lie from Mirelle.
How the fucl would you know you daft cunt? No goddam argument just,
"it's a lie, and because I say it then that is enough'. You really are a
stupid little piece of crap aren't you?
The usual charming erudition from John the Ass.
Post by DoD
IF YOU followed any of the M.E. forums, then you would know that Mirelle
does nothing but lie.
Pretty much the same as John the Ass, and both are equally as versed in
English usage.

Deborah
John of Aix
2006-10-15 18:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Can you see the difference?
Not really, because (I don't have the figures) but a bevy of Jews
have no interest in religion... So if they don't practice Judaism,
what do you think they become, Chinese? Nope they still are what?
Jews..... There are plenty, I am told, of secular Jews in Israel.
Indeed there are and elsewhere in the world, many of themù very
anti-Zionist. Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
population with palestine is their religion so that whether they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
there.
Post by DoD
Also Israel, has one rule that goes against Jewish law and that is
that you don't have to be a Jew by conversion or Jew by having the
mother being Jewish. You are considered a Jew by having Jewish roots
no matter which side. So the sky pixie part is taken right out of
your argument.
See above.
Post by DoD
So Italians have their own state, Serbs have theirs, Koreans have
theirs, Arabs have a shitload of their own.... Why not the Jews?
These are peoples who have lived together contantly for centuries and
milenia, the Jews are mebers of the same religion, nothing more.
Post by DoD
Read the article that I posted and you will see why, anti-zionism is
the new anti-semitism....
Same old whine.
Post by DoD
B.t.w..... I wish you would quit bringing up the Jews consider
themselves chosen..... Every Jew I have talked to reject that and
claim that it is a Christian concept... not a Jewish one.
OK
DoD
2006-10-16 17:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Not really, because (I don't have the figures) but a bevy of Jews
have no interest in religion... So if they don't practice Judaism,
what do you think they become, Chinese? Nope they still are what?
Jews..... There are plenty, I am told, of secular Jews in Israel.
Indeed there are and elsewhere in the world, many of themù very
anti-Zionist.

Most Jews, secular or not, are zionist. In fact the most rabid of the
anti-zionist nutjobs are the ultra orthodox, like the satmars.

Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
Post by John of Aix
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
John of Aix
2006-10-16 21:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Not really, because (I don't have the figures) but a bevy of Jews
have no interest in religion... So if they don't practice Judaism,
what do you think they become, Chinese? Nope they still are what?
Jews..... There are plenty, I am told, of secular Jews in Israel.
Indeed there are and elsewhere in the world, many of themù very
anti-Zionist.
Most Jews, secular or not, are zionist. In fact the most rabid of the
anti-zionist nutjobs are the ultra orthodox, like the satmars.
Even worse then.
Post by DoD
Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
Post by John of Aix
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
What history? The Jewish invaders (for they were that originally)) were
kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago and the people
dispersed. All that subsisted was their common belief in a particular
sky fairy, the only thing that links them today.
d***@yahoo.com
2006-10-16 22:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
What history?
It's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
Post by John of Aix
The Jewish invaders (for they were that originally)) were
kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago
Wrong.
Post by John of Aix
and the people dispersed.
Wrong again.
Post by John of Aix
All that subsisted was their common belief in a particular
sky fairy, the only thing that links them today.
"All that subsisted", huh. How about the Jews who remained in
"Palestine" a couple of thousand years ago, and stayed there for a
couple of thousand years to the present?

Deborah
John of Aix
2006-10-17 17:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
What history?
It's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
You call a few hundred years of presence over the last six millenia your
history do you? Pretty limited I'd say. You're daft lass.
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
The Jewish invaders (for they were that originally)) were
kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago
Wrong.
Right. So fuck off with your Zionist lies.
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
and the people dispersed.
Wrong again.
Right, apart from a few hundred or thousands. Sorry dear but the Hebrews
were kicked out of Palestine and dispersed into the world.
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
All that subsisted was their common belief in a particular
sky fairy, the only thing that links them today.
"All that subsisted", huh. How about the Jews who remained in
"Palestine" a couple of thousand years ago, and stayed there for a
couple of thousand years to the present?
Yep, a few thousand at most. So you think that gives you the right to
kick out the millons of non Jews who live there do you? As I said,
you're daft.
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Deborah
DoD
2006-10-17 17:52:04 UTC
Permalink
"John of Aix" <***@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:453515d6$1$25934
Post by John of Aix
Yep, a few thousand at most.
Horsefeathers a few thousand at most.
Post by John of Aix
So you think that gives you the right to
kick out the millons of non Jews who live there do you?
What millions? There were around 500k at the time IIRC.... MOST left because
other Arabs told them to...

As I said,
Post by John of Aix
you're daft.
And you are straight up lying.
Defendario
2006-10-17 18:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
And you are straight up lying.
You like straight up, eh DooDoo?

I got something straight up right here!

=-o C====8


;D
DoD
2006-10-17 20:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Defendario
Post by DoD
And you are straight up lying.
You like straight up, eh DooDoo?
I got something straight up right here!
=-o C====8
I told you to keep your perverted fantasies to yourself skater boy.
d***@gmail.com
2006-10-17 23:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
What history?
It's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
You call a few hundred years of presence over the last six millenia your
history do you? Pretty limited I'd say. You're daft lass.
As above, it's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
The Jewish invaders (for they were that originally)) were
kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago
Wrong.
Right. So fuck off with your Zionist lies.
Fuck your mother, dimwit. AFTER you've produced the date when your
so-called "Jewish invaders" were "kicked out of Palestine a couple of
thousand years ago".
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
and the people dispersed.
Wrong again.
Right, apart from a few hundred or thousands. Sorry dear but the Hebrews
were kicked out of Palestine and dispersed into the world.
Until you give the date when your so-called "Jewish invaders" were
"kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago", your claim
that "Hebrews were kicked out of Palestine and dispersed into the
world" has no more validity than the rest of your spew.
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
All that subsisted was their common belief in a particular
sky fairy, the only thing that links them today.
"All that subsisted", huh. How about the Jews who remained in
"Palestine" a couple of thousand years ago, and stayed there for a
couple of thousand years to the present?
Yep, a few thousand at most.
What happened to all the "Jewish invaders" or "Hebrews" who "were
kicked out of Palestine and dispersed into the world"? And BTW, just
when, exactly, did that happen?
Post by John of Aix
So you think that gives you the right to
kick out the millons of non Jews who live there do you?
Millions of non-Jews have been kicked out of ...... where?
Post by John of Aix
As I said, you're daft.
You say a lot of things, bubba. Most of it's bullshit.

Deborah
John of Aix
2006-10-18 17:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Nevertheless the only thing that links most of the Jewish
population with palestine is their religion so that whether >they
pracrtice that religion or not, that is their justification for being
Post by John of Aix
there.
No, it is not their "religion". It is their history there. Their
religion/culture are intermixed.
What history?
It's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
You call a few hundred years of presence over the last six millenia
your history do you? Pretty limited I'd say. You're daft lass.
As above, it's obvious John the Ass knows very little.
Post by John of Aix
Post by d***@yahoo.com
Post by John of Aix
The Jewish invaders (for they were that originally)) were
kicked out of Palestine a couple of thousand years ago
Wrong.
Right. So fuck off with your Zionist lies.
Fuck your mother, dimwit. AFTER you've produced the date when your
so-called "Jewish invaders" were "kicked out of Palestine a couple of
thousand years ago".
135, most Hebrews expelled from Judea by Hadrian after a failed revolt.
Benjie
2006-10-17 10:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John of Aix
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Not really, because (I don't have the figures) but a bevy of Jews
have no interest in religion... So if they don't practice Judaism,
what do you think they become, Chinese? Nope they still are what?
Jews..... There are plenty, I am told, of secular Jews in Israel.
Indeed there are and elsewhere in the world, many of themù very
anti-Zionist.
Most Jews, secular or not, are zionist. In fact the most rabid of the
anti-zionist nutjobs are the ultra orthodox, like the satmars.
You dopey cunt, doodoo. Orthodox loathe the zionazia with a passion. Almost
as much as they loathe konverts.
z
2006-10-18 21:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjie
You dopey cunt, doodoo. Orthodox loathe the zionazia with a passion. Almost
as much as they loathe konverts.
Ah, an expert speaks.
R. Westermeyer
2006-10-13 17:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by John of Aix
Post by DoD
Anti-zionism as an Expression of Anti-Semitism in Recent Years
Same old whine from the same old whiners. Fuck off with your
'anti-semitism'. I notice you never come here complaining about
'anti-arabism' or 'anti-islamism'. Why is this? Oh yes I forgot, the
Jews are the chosen people aren't they, a special case, we must all lick
their butts.
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have tacitly
been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have been posting
articles to soc.culture.europe.
Answer the question, Milk DuD! The man calls you on your double
standard: anti-semitism is the only legitimate racism; all else, when
it comes from a Jew, is a-o-k.

Further, you use very derogatory language when talking about Muslims
and Arabs especially.

How do you defend this?

Are you suggesting that hatred against Jews is worse than hatred
against Muslims and/or Arabs?

How do you justify such a stance, without resorting to some circular
reasoning, some 9/11 generalisation (which would be racist), or that
it's what the television is saying to me, which, no doubt, is the
actual reason.

And please, Dad, reply with specific reference to the specific
questions I specifically posed to you, specifically.

Thank you ever so much in advance.

--R
DoD
2006-10-13 19:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by DoD
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have tacitly
been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have been posting
articles to soc.culture.europe.
Answer the question, Milk DuD! The man calls you on your double
standard: anti-semitism is the only legitimate racism; all else, when
it comes from a Jew, is a-o-k.
I am not a racist.... Most Jews are not racist. There are some self loathing
Jews out there, but they are a fraction of the Jewish population. What are
you getting at here?
Post by R. Westermeyer
Further, you use very derogatory language when talking about Muslims
and Arabs especially.
I don't single out Arabs when I am talking about asslifters. My family came
from an area where the Muslims are as white bread as you. We still don't
like them.
Post by R. Westermeyer
How do you defend this?
When asslifters start getting uppity, they usually like to go around sawing
off peoples heads. You want to defend that type of crowd... Not me.
Post by R. Westermeyer
Are you suggesting that hatred against Jews is worse than hatred
against Muslims and/or Arabs?
I am saying that hatred towards Jews is not justified and not rational.

When the 1 billion "peaceful Muslims" rise up and tell the terrorists and
they sypathizers...... "STFU!!!! Not in our name" , two things will happen.
..... I will cease being hard on Muslims, and two, they will root out their
own problems. And we will cease having to play these silly little games with
them.
Post by R. Westermeyer
How do you justify such a stance, without resorting to some circular
reasoning, some 9/11 generalisation (which would be racist)
Muslims are not a race, nitwit.

or that
Post by R. Westermeyer
it's what the television is saying to me, which, no doubt, is the
actual reason.
No, bob, I have been around. I, unlike you, have been out of the United
States.
Post by R. Westermeyer
And please, Dad, reply with specific reference to the specific
questions I specifically posed to you, specifically.
I hope I was specific enough for you.
Post by R. Westermeyer
Thank you ever so much in advance.
You're welcome.

Your Daddy.
Defendario
2006-10-14 02:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by DoD
Your comments absolutely proved the article truth and what you have
tacitly
Post by R. Westermeyer
Post by DoD
been trying to keep from admitting the whole time I have been posting
articles to soc.culture.europe.
Answer the question, Milk DuD! The man calls you on your double
standard: anti-semitism is the only legitimate racism; all else, when
it comes from a Jew, is a-o-k.
I am not a racist.... Most Jews are not racist. There are some self loathing
Jews out there, but they are a fraction of the Jewish population. What are
you getting at here?
He's getting at the obvious race-hate you harbor towards Arabs, and
bigotry towards Muslims generally.
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
Further, you use very derogatory language when talking about Muslims
and Arabs especially.
I don't single out Arabs when I am talking about asslifters. My family came
from an area where the Muslims are as white bread as you. We still don't
like them.
"Asslifters"? You prove my point, DooDoo.
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
How do you defend this?
When asslifters start getting uppity, they usually like to go around sawing
off peoples heads. You want to defend that type of crowd... Not me.
You sound like an old KKKlown talking about Nigras. You are a bigot,
DooDoo. Plain and simple.
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
Are you suggesting that hatred against Jews is worse than hatred
against Muslims and/or Arabs?
I am saying that hatred towards Jews is not justified and not rational.
Neither is hatred toward Arabs or Muslims. Same same.
Post by DoD
When the 1 billion "peaceful Muslims" rise up and tell the terrorists and
they sypathizers...... "STFU!!!! Not in our name" , two things will happen.
..... I will cease being hard on Muslims, and two, they will root out their
own problems. And we will cease having to play these silly little games with
them.
One billion Muslims see what the jooz and their enablers have done and
are still doing to their co-religional brothers in Palestine (and
elsewhere) and want to hit back. That is normal and sensible, DooDoo.

Your shitty little anti-Semite card doesn't work on them. They aren't
afraid to be called anti_Semites, and more and more Americans are waking
up and feeling the same way.
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
How do you justify such a stance, without resorting to some circular
reasoning, some 9/11 generalisation (which would be racist)
Muslims are not a race, nitwit.
Neither are jooz, DooDoo.
Post by DoD
or that
Post by R. Westermeyer
it's what the television is saying to me, which, no doubt, is the
actual reason.
No, bob, I have been around. I, unlike you, have been out of the United
States.
Really? They let idiots like you out of your villages?
;-)
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
And please, Dad, reply with specific reference to the specific
questions I specifically posed to you, specifically.
I hope I was specific enough for you.
You are a joke.
Post by DoD
Post by R. Westermeyer
Thank you ever so much in advance.
You're welcome.
Your Daddy.
I got your Daddy right here:
=-o C===8

;D
Lisa
2006-10-17 00:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DoD
[Many thanks to Lisa for the original pointer to this exceptional article
that unfortunately encapsules what we see on these forums WRT Israel. This
artcle puts together many of my thoughts over the past few years very well]
Why thank you. I do believe that the author touches on one very
important point, to wit:

<snip>
Post by DoD
But it appears to me that there is a basic continuity between classical
anti-Semitism and contemporary anti-Zionism which can and should guide us in
our search. Both ideologies seek in practice to deprive the Jew of his right
to an equal place in the world; to limit his activity and freedom of
movement; his human civic and political rights, and even his very right to
exist - at least in the more radical formulation. Both anti-Semitism and
anti-Zionism imply that the Jews have no claim to be a free independent
people like other peoples, to define themselves according to universally
acceptable criteria of self-determination, to enjoy the fruits of individual
or collective emancipation. Thus both ideologies are built on the negation
of Jewish rights and seek to drive the Jews back into a ghetto - whether it
is physical or symbolic. The Je4ws must be confined to the status of a
pariah nation. In a word, they do not belong.
"The Jews has never founded any civilization, though he has destroyed
hundreds. He possesses nothing of his own creation to which he can
point. Everything he has is stolen....In the last resort it is the
Aryan alone who can form States and set them on their path to future
greatness. All this the Jew cannot do. And because they cannot do it,

therefore all his revolutions must be international. They must spread
as a pestilence spreads. Already he has destroyed Russia; now it is
the turn of Germany, and with his envious instinct for destruction he
seeks to disintegrate the national spirit of the Germans and to pollute

their blood."


Alan Bullock: Hitler: A Study in Tyranny


See, Hitler and other European anti-Semites thought that statelessness
was the source of whatever was "bad" about Jews. Jews, they said,
cannot create civilization. They are not creators---they are
imitators. Europeans create civilization; Jews are just along for the
ride, like parasites hitching a free ride on a host. They must be
destroyed before they kill off the host nation.

Now there is an Israel, and anti-Semites are screaming for it to be
brought down. Arabs are entitled to two dozen countries. Jews are not
entitled to even one.

The upshot of all this is---Jews are neither entitled to an existence
without Israel, nor is Israel allowed to exist. If Jews are permitted
to an existence neither inside nor outside Israel, then where exactly
are Jews permitted to live?

No one has ever answered that question.
Post by DoD
The O'Brien litmus test is certainly a useful guide for identifying a major
component of contemporary anti-Semitic anti-Zionism in both Eat and Wet. In
the Communist world, this type of "anti-Jewish" dates back at least 30 years
to the period of the Slansky trial in Czechoslovakia and the so called
"Doctors' Plot" orchestrated by the dying Stalin. But it only attained full
force after the massive Arab defeat in June 1967, when the USSR, to revive
its own damaged prestige, embarked on a systematic campaign to totally
discredit Israel, Zionism and Judaism, One of its most widely used weapons
was the remorseless repetition of the legend that the Zionist had already
sought in the 1930s to create a "pro-Nazi" state in the Middle East, that
they had actively participated with the Germans in the mass destruction of
European Jewry, that they had sabotaged Jewish resistance in the ghettos and
served as a "fifth column" for the Wehrmacht in the conquered territories of
Europe. Both Nazis and Zionist supposedly signed secret agreements which
condemned the Jews of Europe the gas chambers in return for German support
for Jewish "fascist" aims in Palestine!
And yet there really "was" a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of nonaggression
between Hitler and Stalin. This really "was" a secret agreement (it
obviously didn't stay secret for long) to carve up Eastern Europe into
spheres of influence. Germany got Poland, the Soviets got the Baltic
states, etc.

For a couple of years, Stalin even sort of forgot that Nazism was his
mortal enemy. He got a few satellite nations, and Hitler would go be a
pest to England and France instead of him.
Post by DoD
The interesting fact is that in recent years these grotesque Soviet
blood-libels have been taken up by a part of the radical Left - especially
the Trotskyists - in Western Europe and America. This trend is most striking
in Great Britain, of which I have the greatest first-hand experience - a
country which in the last decade has proved increasingly receptive to the
most varied kinds of anti-Zionist rhetoric. The willingness of supposedly
anti-Soviet radical leftists to swallow these made in Russia fabrications,
provides food for thought. Are they in fact nothing but puppets of His
Master's Voice in Moscow or bought lackeys of Arab petro-dollars? Perhaps in
some cases, this is indeed the reason. But the truth, I think, is more
disturbing than that. Anti-Zionism has in the past fifteen to twenty years,
gradually become an integral part of the cultural code of many Leftist and
some liberal circles - an enemy on a par with Imperialism, racism and
militarism - and invariably identified with these evils.
The last reason is the true one. The Left never was taking orders from
Moscow, or getting paid off with Arab petrodollars, or any such
simpleminded silliness. It's simply that anti-Zionism is currently
part of the Leftists' credo. (Rightwingers can also be hostile to
Israel, but they're usually frankly anti-Jewish too).

BTW, the European Left was friendly to Israel in its first couple of
decades of existence. The reason? Because Israelis, like Europeans,
had a statist economy. Israelis were fellow socialists. They were
comrades in the creation of the coming great socialist valhalla.

And there was not much, if any, mention of Palestinians at that time.

Lisa
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